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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

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Original poster

the older i get, the more accepting of my religion's 'mores' do i become...

58 replies

pukkapatch · 06/03/2008 09:23

i believe in God. i have faith. but i am a lazy lazy person, so dont really follow the rules and regulations. people who dont know me wouldnt think that i believed in God.
but, as i grow older, and listen to more and more discussions/arguments about various practices by various religions by people who dont necessarily have a depth of knowledge abuot the topic under dicussion, (circumcision, homosexuality, punishments for criminals, the application of the law, mode of dress, etc.) the more inclined i am to just say (or at least think) 'because God says so'
if you accept that God created us, and is all powerful and all knowledgable etc (whatever your religion), then you cannot pick and choose your the bits you like, or try to second guess Him/Her. in particular when people say that they think something. well no disrespect to them, but surely God's opinion has a little more weight than theres? as an analogy, i would trust the medical opinion of a doctor, over the medical opinion of a plumber. even though both are capable people.

i come from a regligous family that rejects almost all cultural aspects of their religion and question and study it, so i do have a great deal of knowledge, but i am a lazy soul, who is too shallow to think of the afterlife 99% of the time. does anyone else feel like this? or am i alone in this?

OP posts:

OverMyDeadBody · 06/03/2008 12:52

I agree boysontoast, and think that spirituality is not the same thing as religious belief.

Yes religious belief has a place in society, or had a place, there was a need for them at the time, they are just not so relevant now, 200yrs later, and it's time we moved on.

Oh and threadworm, society doesn't need religion in order to have values, we can be moral 'good' people without holding any religious beliefs, and so can society as a whole.

SueBaroo · 06/03/2008 12:53

But actually, yes, I do agree with Boysontoast that exploring the 'why?' is something good and doesn't have to be against spirituality at all.

Original poster

pukkapatch · 06/03/2008 13:03

i think 'why' is always good. i just dont ask why quite so much now as i did when i was younger. its interesting suebaroo that you have the completly opposite experience to myself. i know my mother spends far more time studying religion now than she did when she was younger. whilst i ammuch more accepting now.

for me, there is no question as to the existence of God. for me science has proven that there must be a God.
this has been an interesting thread, hoperully,i shall return to this discussion this evening.

OP posts:

Original poster

pukkapatch · 06/03/2008 13:06

saadai, if i recall, its not alcohol per se that is banned. it is any substance that in larger quantities will cause you to lose control of your faculties, then even a drop of it is banned, unless as a medicine.
bread contains the compound ethanol as a by product of yeast fermentation. although most of it evaporates off during baking. but eating vast quantities of bread wont makeyou drunk, so the alchol in that is perfectly acceptable. (sorry being pedantic here) drugs are included in the alchol ban, though many culturalist seem to not agree.

OP posts:

OverMyDeadBody · 06/03/2008 13:11

science has proven that there must be a god?

So there is scientific proof that god exists?

How? When? Where?

Original poster

pukkapatch · 06/03/2008 13:13

for me ovm. for me. my earlier post about the genetics course i took at university.

OP posts:

Niecie · 06/03/2008 13:14

Not sure science has proved there is a God. If it had we wouldn't need faith it would just be a fact.

On the other hand it hasn't proved that there isn't a God either.

OverMyDeadBody · 06/03/2008 13:15

I know I know pukka, was just stirring, sorry

Niecie · 06/03/2008 13:17

I think Richard Dawkins might disagree with you on the genetics Pukka but I see what you mean.

How can all this complex universe have been created by accident? Doesn't make sense to me either. The probability of the world being created by chance are so infintisimally (sp?) small that you have to wonder how anybody can believe that it was the case.

Original poster

pukkapatch · 06/03/2008 13:18

i am supposed to be getting ready, plastering my face with makeup, getting dressed, and off to ds prospective secondary, instead of discussing theology with you lot. if i dont get the letter in, then he wont be going to the school.
if you see me here again before tonight, yell at me!

OP posts:

Original poster

pukkapatch · 06/03/2008 13:19

exactly niecie!

OP posts:

OverMyDeadBody · 06/03/2008 13:22

Ah but niecie not believing in a 'God' doesn't mean you have to believe the world was created 'by accident'. It's cause and effect.

Actaully the probability (statistically speaking) of the big bang having occured is not infantesimaly small, but that's a whole other thread too...(and what 'caused' the big bang is another thing altogether...)

OverMyDeadBody · 06/03/2008 13:22

lol see ya tonight then pukka!

Niecie · 06/03/2008 13:35

Overmydeadbody, that is a whole other book, never mind a thread

Nobody really knows do they? I can't see, short of a message from Above how anybody can prove anything one way or another.

What I don't get was what was there before the Big Bang.

Good luck with the school Pukka - if you are late, tell them you were discussing theology, philosophy and physic and got delayed and they will be very impressed I'm sure - bound to let your son in as he obviously comes from the right sort of family.

OverMyDeadBody · 06/03/2008 13:45

Yep, and I'm not writing it!

The problem with grand unifying theories like the one about God is that they explain everything, so they cannot be disproved, and this is one of the reasons I just don't buy it personally.

As for what came before the Big Bang, well, nothing, because there was nothing there for anything to be there. But there could be othr universes out there forming from other big bangs that are happening all the time. Just like there is no black hole before a black hole develops, nothing came before the big bang in our sense of the word. But define 'before' or try to explain what you mean by whatever it is you imagine there was before the big bang, and it all gets rather complicated and complex and tied up in semantics and relativity.

Niecie · 06/03/2008 13:54

How can there have been nothing ( and I am expecting you to know the answer to this obviously) as you can't create something out of nothing?

I imagine 'everything' to be a big ball that just exploded (the Big Bang) and spread itself out. But where this big ball was I have no idea since it can't have been anywhere since there was nothing there.

I don't think there is any doubt there are other universes as I can't imagine this tiny planet, the size of a speck of dust in relation to everything else that exists anywhere is the only place where there is life. This doesn't mean there isn't a God either since he is all powerful and can surely juggle a few universes, no problem.

Lunchtime and a lie down in a darkened room now, I think.

OverMyDeadBody · 06/03/2008 14:15

lol neicie, my head hurts too!

With the big bang, it's no good imagining it as a 'big ball' that just exploded, this is how I understand it:

All the energy that makes up the universe was compacted into a tiny space about a million times smaller than a speck of dust, and this infantesimal but infinately dense heavy speck started expanding outwards, and the force of all this energy moving outwards caused particles to form, simple gasses first like hydrogen etc, then complex ones, then matter, and all this expanding of energy finally caused all the elements that we find now to be formed. The universe (or spacetime) is still expanding, everything is getting further and further apart, it was not just a process that happened and was done. The actualy phrase 'big bang' was coined by a guy called Fred Hoyle who didn't believe it and was taking the piss, but it has stuck, dispite giving the wrong impression of it really.

There is lots of scientific evidence that spacetime is expanding, which indicates that it all had to start from somewhere, but I won't go into the specifics of Doppler shifts, cosmic microwave background radiation, and Hubble's law as I'm really not thast experienced and will no doubt say something completely wrong. It is all very interesting though.

And, doesn't, obviously disprove anyone's theory that God exists, as the theory of God explains everything and so can explain this, as in 'God made it all happen'.

Now, where's that darkened room? I need a lie down...

saadia · 06/03/2008 14:24

OverMyDeadBody, the thing about Islam is that the word itself means "submission", so the way I see it is that yes we have a choice but we have also been given guidance and if you submit then you accept and obey that guidance, and that is the test that is life, on which we will all one day be judged.

Thanks for that clarification pukka.

Niecie · 06/03/2008 14:47

On the telly they always have the big bang as an explosion of something, hence the big ball of something picture in my head.

OK big ball, small speck of dust, something lots lots smaller than that, whatever it is, where was it before it went bang?

Probably best not to answer - this could get messy.

To get back roughly to where the OP came from, the way I see it is that the God is the ideal and we should all be working towards being as perfect as him. He gave us free will to work towards that goal or to submit to it even, and though it may be impossible we have to do our best achieve that. In doing so it makes us all (humans and God) happy.

In a sense it doesn't matter if there is a God at all. If you assume that there is an ideal state of love, kindness, mercy, charity and hope and all things good and that is what you aim for then you will end up being a better person. A belief in a being who made it all possible isn't absolutely necessary.

OverMyDeadBody · 06/03/2008 14:50

Thanks saadia, luckily I already know what Islam means and what it's all about, only too well in fact.

I just don't see the point in it personally, why would God have created us, to then test us by giving us free will and choices, and then judge us at the end and either reward or punish us in the 'afterlife' for what we did? What's the point? It all sounds far too much like some reality tv show, entertaining for God, but rather pontless really, except to boost his ego and have us all prove how much we love him.

Heard of Occam's razor?

OverMyDeadBody · 06/03/2008 14:53

I completely agree with this niecie

'In a sense it doesn't matter if there is a God at all. If you assume that there is an ideal state of love, kindness, mercy, charity and hope and all things good and that is what you aim for then you will end up being a better person. A belief in a being who made it all possible isn't absolutely necessary'.

If believing something makes you a better person and makes the world a better place, than that is good, it's when beliefs get used by people and their organised religions and men get greedy for power that it all goes horribly wrong and blood is shed.

Niecie · 06/03/2008 15:06

Along the lines of the idea of why God created us just to watch us fail, I have often wondered why he planted the apple tree in the garden of Eden in the first place. It was asking for trouble. Why create something which is supposedly perfect just to let it ruin itself. What is the point?

I asked on of the curates that at church and she said I was being very cynical. I didn't think I was, it was a genuine question but if God isn't playing with us ( which we have to assume he wouldn't do since he is supposed to be an all round nice bloke) then why test perfection?

SueBaroo · 06/03/2008 15:10

Well, I suppose the only way you really appreciate the good stuff is when you know what the bad stuff is like... wish it wasn't so, but I'm afraid I've experienced that as true.

Niecie · 06/03/2008 15:21

Fair point Subaroo but why did he make people aware in a way that other animals are not? Why make one animal above all others in his own likeness? In fact why bother with it at all? What did he get from it except hassle and disappointment?

I guess I am not agreeing with the OP now. Whoever said they get more questioning instead of less with age - I think I am with you!

SueBaroo · 06/03/2008 15:33

Niecie, lol - them's some hard questions. I have answers that satisfy me, but they came from asking the questions, which is logical

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