The Coronation and Christianity

[Comfreyandstingingnettles]

Putting this here instead of under Royal Family section because I was hoping for a particular religious perspective or explanation please?

If you are C of E, I would be particularly interested in your views.

Personally I found the ceremony today problematic from two positions:

1. the anointing of kings aspect but I obviously understand the historical reasons behind this and also the principle of an established religion

1. the anachronistic nature of serving the poor and disenfranchised from a position of great wealth and power.

I should say too that as a Catholic I noted the words "protestant succession" in the ceremony

although I understand the historical context, thought that we had moved on and reached a more ecumenical understanding

I don't know where you got that idea, OP. Catholics especially are excluded from becoming monarch. The monarch is head of the CofE and the CofE appoints members of the legislature. All this stuff underpins our 'unwritten constitution', even if it doesn't form an obvious part of everyday politics.

The UK is still a very much a theocracy (albeit a wooly and mild one).

Every Anglican I know insists they are catholic not Protestant though.

Large parts of it are theologically Catholic and large parts are theologically Fundamentalist, neither of which are compatible with mainstream Protestantism. Nonetheless it is politically Protestant and the CofE has always been primarily a political organisation.

For transparency, I'm an atheist - however, I don’t think my opinions would be different were I a Christian.

What I find baffling is that, in this day and age, we still allow the Royal Family to believe that being the monarch is a divine right given to them by God. Unless God himself appeared in front of them, or sent the Angel Gabriel, and told Charles to his face that He wants him to be king, how can they be sure it's really what God wants? Surely, by now, they can accept that it's an institution you're either born into or you aren't. Nothing divine about it.

@TitoMojito as per earlier post, I completely agree and you’ve put my thoughts into words. (I’m a practising Catholic)

Yes, I agree with your post too! It does seem very at odds with what Jesus stood for - being a man of the people, healing the sick, feeding the poor, etc etc. Gold carriages and jewels don’t seem like something Jesus would approve of, especially in the current economic climate.

I could have written your list word for word. This is exactly my viewpoint too Movingonupi.

If people are interested, I've just been listening to the latest episode of the Holy Smoke podcast, which talks about the theological history of the coronation and how it's ended up as it has.

I’d be fascinated to listen to that, thank you very much for the recommendation Fink

I should say as a warning, it's presented by Damian Thompson who can be quite acerbic and has very strong opinions about various religious matters. But can ignore him and still get a lot out of the podcast.

I thought the anointing behind screens was ridiculous. Made it seem like some sort of medieval magic trick. Which I suppose, in a way, it is.

@Fink

I listened and it was interesting - Id a feeling Charles was very high church but that's no secret

Btw if you think Damian Thompson is ascerbic - you should hear some of my podcasts lol

I know about Henry v111 and the break with Rome but they kept a lot of catholic ritual . This is what I don't understand - it sounded like Charles was being ordained as a priest !
And also Elizabeth Bowes Lyon seemed v low church and so did Elizabeth - yet Charles could rejoin Rome or Athens quite easily by the look of it

@Movingonupi

I am not religious now but am
interested and I get what you are saying about the ritual

It seemed to be raising Charles up above everyone .
No doubt that was necessary when Henry broke with Rome and needed to be accepted as an equal to a Pope
It's still weird , the whole thing

(Im being good and saying nothing about Camilla )

In the high Anglican churches.
The mass clearly states ‘ pray for the Catholic Church’.

My boys went to a c of e school and at the first service I was astonished, as a Catholic, that they said this. In both Rochester and Canterbury Cathedrals.
In the Coronation, it was left out. They only mentioned Protestant Church.
I was hoping, as Charles has declared a more ‘all inclusive Monarchy’ that perhaps some more appropriate wording would be used.

The anointing of Kings, I assumed was to do with Charles now being Head of the Church of England. Just as the Pope would be anointed as Head of RC.
Assume this goes back to Henry VIII. Although he was born and died a Catholic, just not one that accepted the Pope as its head……but that’s another story 🤣

Thanks for the warning Fink 😀

And we are admiring of your restraint Novella4 😆😆. And yes I agree it seemed almost like an ordination.

So did I BitOutOfPractice

Novella4 btw - your podcasts????

Yes exactly LiveAHappyLifeBePositive I thought it wouldn't have hurt to have used some more inclusive wording too. There have been a lot of rumblings in The Tablet about it recently.

I'm of a feee evangelical Christian background (which I no longer adhere to BTW as it has its own issues that I can't get past).

But amongst all that wealth, and pomp, all I could think was what would Jesus be doing if he was there at that coronation, the sad thing is, he would not have been there, or happy to be there, he would have been speaking to the poor and sick in the crowds.

A poor Jew with a crown of thorns is worlds away from the crowns and wealth on display. But I think that about most of the wealthier religions, not sure Christ would be happy at the Vatican or in any of the wealthy protestant cathedrals either.

There is a certain mysticism, other worldness about manmade religious ceremonies in huge cathedrals, but it's not real, it feel forced and far removed from the God and Jesus I know. Just my thoughts on it.

Agree he’d be amongst the crowds and so on
But
He wasn’t a ‘poor Jew’ himself. In todays system he would probably be middle to upper middle class.

Elizabeth pledged to defend the Catholic and apostolic Church as per the credo iirc. I didn't watch but surely Charles did likewise? So they have a bit of both.

The Church of Ireland - which is Anglican - states that it is a Catholic and Protestant Church.

They skipped the Creed in order to make the ceremony shorter, and they also skipped another prayer that mentioned the Catholic faith. So there was no mention of it at all.

The Nicene Creed refers to the "catholic (small "c") and apostolic church". "Catholic" is a term which means "universal" - using this terminology doesn't imply any allegiance to the Roman Catholic Church.

They skipped the Creed in order to make the ceremony shorter

Being happy to skip the creed for time indicates to me that the whole thing is more about the religious cosplay than actual belief.

'Religious cosplay' sounds right and goes some way to explain why many sincerely religious people are uncomfortable with it

Yes I know what catholic means thanks. I'm sure if Anglicans wanted to really distance themselves from the universal church they could amend the Nicene Creed.

Welby is an Evangelical of course , probably uncomfortable with the smells and bells wing of the C of E?

Surprised they included the Magnificat - ' the rich He has sent away empty '