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Philosophy/religion

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Original poster

Why is religion still a thing?

404 replies

Scarletthoo2 · 12/04/2023 15:41

As the title states, I would like to know why people still choose religion rather than science, please give me your personal view and opinions.

I was christened at birth, but grown up an atheist. I'm just curious to know why so many people still believe in religion and god. Considering there's undeniable evidence that everything on earth is simply made of atoms and particles and wasn't created by an otherworldly person.

Hopefully this doesn't cause offence to some people, like I've said, just simply want others views.

OP posts:
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15
OMG12 · 16/04/2023 13:50

AlexiaR · 16/04/2023 12:06

Ok, so in which societies, within which parts of history, was this special “knowledge”, or “deep internal knowledge of there being something more”?. Who are these people? And if they don’t have this “knowledge” are they inferior or not good enough, some how?

Show quote history

There are lots of examples of this, probably the easiest to access and understand is Kabbalah, prob Neoplatonism, what we refer to as Gnostic traditions, some Christian mystics. The initiatory schools of ancient eygpt. Prob in Mesopotamia
Throughout history there has been an esoteric current
and there is no real superiority:inferiority- everyone is just as they are. Sometimes these people might be revered as teachers. I would put Jesus in this camp.

OMG12 · 16/04/2023 13:52

aSofaNearYou · 16/04/2023 11:18

*Actually you have no way of knowing whether I have internal knowledge or an internal feeling. My experience is this is knowledge.

across societies and histories people that don’t have this are somewhat of an anomaly so you could say they are missing something that the majority have had across history. But that’s not a judgemental thing any more that some people have red hair, others have blond etc.*

Yes, I do. Knowledge is something proven. This is a strong feeling. You could well be right, but it is not knowledge.

I suggest you look up spiritual gnosis to look at the meaning of knowledge in this context

Blaueblumen · 16/04/2023 13:57

Ok, so why would a God allow an innocent child to die from cancer?

I would love to hear an answer if anyone has one?

OMG12 · 16/04/2023 14:01

QueenHippolyta · 16/04/2023 12:26

@OMG12 : "Well if you look at say the groups we now call Gnostic Christians it was actually the demiurge who created the material world so the material world is fundamentally evil."

This is Manichaeism, St. Augustine was a manichee before his conversion
Manichaeism
Additionally the ancient Jews and later Christians imported their ideas of evil, the devil, heaven and hell, the last judgement from Zoroastrianism ( the Jews received these ideas when in Babylonian captivity),which was strongly dualistic; a good god Ahura Mazda vs an evil one Ahriman. Dualism does a neat job of explaining evil.
Zoroastrianism
I personally follow Heraclitus the ancient Greek philosopher.

"Heraclitus writes: This world-order [Kosmos], the same of all, no god nor man did create, but it ever was and is and will be: everliving fire, kindling in measures and being quenched in measures. From fire all things originate."
He also asserted reincarnation, souls ascending in perfection, the gods etc
Heraclitus

Most people would inc Manichaeism as part of the Gnostic grouping (although arguably not strictly Christian). These groups were typically dualistic.

https://www.learnreligions.com/manichaeism-a-christian-heresy-249506

An Introduction to Manichaeism

Manicheism is an extreme form of dualistic gnosticism. It promises salvation through the attainment of special knowledge of spiritual truths.

https://www.learnreligions.com/manichaeism-a-christian-heresy-249506

aSofaNearYou · 16/04/2023 14:05

I suggest you look up spiritual gnosis to look at the meaning of knowledge in this context

That's still just another way of describing "a strong feeling you are personally convinced is fact". You can't just declare something is real knowledge just because you feel it deeply.

AlexiaR · 16/04/2023 14:22

aSofaNearYou · 16/04/2023 14:05

I suggest you look up spiritual gnosis to look at the meaning of knowledge in this context

That's still just another way of describing "a strong feeling you are personally convinced is fact". You can't just declare something is real knowledge just because you feel it deeply.

Exactly - 100%.

Blind, unquestioning faith does not equate to actual knowledge. Religious faith is just a subjective feeling.

QueenHippolyta · 16/04/2023 14:42

Spiritual gnosis is interesting. For some years I received training in a mainstream Japanese esoteric Buddhist sect ( the Emperor belongs to it) The training is very ascetic and tough, the point being to trigger some form of enlightenment. You discuss these experiences with your spiritual master (Sensei). It's been going on over 1000 years There are plenty of such experiences written down in China and Japan and can be pretty similar.
All this has died out pretty much in the West but the living tradition certainly is alive in South Asia and East Asia.

LucifersLight · 16/04/2023 15:39

To answer the original question, I would say for most people it’s fear of nothingness and they need hope to help them cope with that fear. Then there’s the brainwashing of course.

OMG12 · 16/04/2023 17:10

aSofaNearYou · 16/04/2023 14:05

I suggest you look up spiritual gnosis to look at the meaning of knowledge in this context

That's still just another way of describing "a strong feeling you are personally convinced is fact". You can't just declare something is real knowledge just because you feel it deeply.

I really don’t think you quite understand the concept in this context, knowledge is to be gained through experience. What would you describe as knowledge, a lot of what we consider fact is just an illusion.

it’s not really a deep feeling it is a totally different experience if you’ve experienced it you know. It might not be measurable by scientific method, but for many people that is totally irrelevant when it comes to spiritual matters

Blaueblumen · 16/04/2023 17:15

It might not be measurable by scientific method, but for many people that is totally irrelevant when it comes to spiritual matters

For those who do believe in science and evolution that inability to measure something is very relevant indeed.

OMG12 · 16/04/2023 17:24

QueenHippolyta · 16/04/2023 14:42

Spiritual gnosis is interesting. For some years I received training in a mainstream Japanese esoteric Buddhist sect ( the Emperor belongs to it) The training is very ascetic and tough, the point being to trigger some form of enlightenment. You discuss these experiences with your spiritual master (Sensei). It's been going on over 1000 years There are plenty of such experiences written down in China and Japan and can be pretty similar.
All this has died out pretty much in the West but the living tradition certainly is alive in South Asia and East Asia.

From my experience it is very much growing again in the west (still no where near where it is in the East obviously)

OMG12 · 16/04/2023 17:26

Blaueblumen · 16/04/2023 17:15

It might not be measurable by scientific method, but for many people that is totally irrelevant when it comes to spiritual matters

For those who do believe in science and evolution that inability to measure something is very relevant indeed.

But science is great at describing the material world, it is what it was designed to do. The spiritual world is different from the material world so scientific methodology is useless there, it’s not what it was designed to do. So it is irrelevant.

satsumasa · 16/04/2023 17:28

Blaueblumen · 16/04/2023 13:57

Ok, so why would a God allow an innocent child to die from cancer?

I would love to hear an answer if anyone has one?

I gave an answer to this - because a Christians we believe the kingdom of heaven is better than anhtnjnf else on earth

So their reward is a millions times over any joy they could get on earth

Ringmaster27 · 16/04/2023 17:41

@satsumasa but that still doesn’t explain why a God who supposedly loves us beyond measure would subject a child to all the pain involved in cancer treatment/dying from the disease as a stepping stone to “the greater beyond”. It’s cruel. If “He” truly wanted that child to go to heaven for whatever reason, surely he’d do that in a painless way? Not subject that child to such a cruel, painful end?
There is not a child on this earth who has done anything to deserve such cruelty.

aSofaNearYou · 16/04/2023 17:46

*I really don’t think you quite understand the concept in this context, knowledge is to be gained through experience. What would you describe as knowledge, a lot of what we consider fact is just an illusion.

it’s not really a deep feeling it is a totally different experience if you’ve experienced it you know. It might not be measurable by scientific method, but for many people that is totally irrelevant when it comes to spiritual matters*

This is obviously not a subject either of us will change each others mind on, you will not agree with me and I will not agree with you.

But given that no form of spirituality has actually been proven (and I don't believe in any of it) that's not really a very convincing argument.

Fact is by definition, not an illusion. Sometimes things we believed to be fact might be proven wrong, but facts are things that are known and proven to be true. So unless a bearded white man (or substitute for whatever other image) has stood in front of you saying "I am God", then no, you don't know. It isn't a fact. It IS a feeling. Something you believe in with no evidence beyond a strong conviction within telling you it is real, is a feeling. All you KNOW is that you have a strong feeling it's true.

aSofaNearYou · 16/04/2023 17:46

But science is great at describing the material world, it is what it was designed to do. The spiritual world is different from the material world so scientific methodology is useless there, it’s not what it was designed to do. So it is irrelevant.

The existence of a "spiritual world" is not a fact.

Blaueblumen · 16/04/2023 17:50

Ringmaster27 · 16/04/2023 17:41

@satsumasa but that still doesn’t explain why a God who supposedly loves us beyond measure would subject a child to all the pain involved in cancer treatment/dying from the disease as a stepping stone to “the greater beyond”. It’s cruel. If “He” truly wanted that child to go to heaven for whatever reason, surely he’d do that in a painless way? Not subject that child to such a cruel, painful end?
There is not a child on this earth who has done anything to deserve such cruelty.

The terrible suffering that an innocent child has to endure that is dying from cancer? And the suffering and heartache for their families? Why would a kind God inflict such pain on innocent families?

Blaueblumen · 16/04/2023 17:52

But science is great at describing the material world, it is what it was designed to do. The spiritual world is different from the material world so scientific methodology is useless there, it’s not what it was designed to do. So it is irrelevant.

There is absolutely no proof or evidence of the existence of a spiritual world imo. Do you have any proof or evidence?

Ringmaster27 · 16/04/2023 18:02

@Blaueblumen exactly that.
I cannot fathom it.

MaJolie · 16/04/2023 18:02

aSofaNearYou · 16/04/2023 17:46

But science is great at describing the material world, it is what it was designed to do. The spiritual world is different from the material world so scientific methodology is useless there, it’s not what it was designed to do. So it is irrelevant.

The existence of a "spiritual world" is not a fact.

It’s probably a ‘fact’ if you are the type to believe your deceased granny (or at lest someone with an initial M or L who passed over because of some ailment to do with her general torso) is communicating via Madame Zelda on the pier, that a white feather in the garden is a message from the universe rather than because of your bird table, or that God made the world in seven days because the Bible says so.

QueenHippolyta · 16/04/2023 18:56

@OMG12 :
"From my experience it is very much growing again in the west (still no where near where it is in the East obviously)"

Absolutely agree. I left Buddhism as I prefer my own Western tradition which as you say is developing .
Do you know this; it's terrific, " The Wisdom of Hypatia :
Practices for a More Meaningful Life, offers a progressive, nine-month program based on the teachings of this inspiring Pagan Neoplatonic philosopher. Discover how to bring purpose, tranquility, and spiritual depth..."
http://wisdomofhypatia.com/
It's highly regarded.

The Wisdom of Hypatia: Ancient Spiritual Practices for a More Meaningful Life, by Bruce J. MacLennan, PhD, teaches the Neoplatonic way of life.

http://wisdomofhypatia.com

OMG12 · 16/04/2023 18:56

MaJolie · 16/04/2023 18:02

It’s probably a ‘fact’ if you are the type to believe your deceased granny (or at lest someone with an initial M or L who passed over because of some ailment to do with her general torso) is communicating via Madame Zelda on the pier, that a white feather in the garden is a message from the universe rather than because of your bird table, or that God made the world in seven days because the Bible says so.

Show quote history

Oh dear, I’m sorry you have to resort to trying to insult people. You clearly have nothing worthwhile to say. Or can you try and engage respectfully?

OMG12 · 16/04/2023 19:01

QueenHippolyta · 16/04/2023 18:56

@OMG12 :
"From my experience it is very much growing again in the west (still no where near where it is in the East obviously)"

Absolutely agree. I left Buddhism as I prefer my own Western tradition which as you say is developing .
Do you know this; it's terrific, " The Wisdom of Hypatia :
Practices for a More Meaningful Life, offers a progressive, nine-month program based on the teachings of this inspiring Pagan Neoplatonic philosopher. Discover how to bring purpose, tranquility, and spiritual depth..."
http://wisdomofhypatia.com/
It's highly regarded.

Ooh thank you, I’m going through a different system but will definitely take a look.

Im coming across more and more people that have moved on from Eastern Practices. I find it really interesting that people are drawn back to their local traditions once they become aware of it.

OMG12 · 16/04/2023 19:06

Blaueblumen · 16/04/2023 17:52

But science is great at describing the material world, it is what it was designed to do. The spiritual world is different from the material world so scientific methodology is useless there, it’s not what it was designed to do. So it is irrelevant.

There is absolutely no proof or evidence of the existence of a spiritual world imo. Do you have any proof or evidence?

I have my own experience- that’s enough for me.

As I’ve repeatedly stated, the kind of scientific “evidence” your looking for is never going to happen.

if you’re interested in finding things out, you’ll have to try it all out yourself with an open mind.

To be honest it doesn’t really matter to me what you believe, if it’s not right for you it’s not right, that’s fine. My beliefs are not a religion, it doesn’t make a difference to me whether you believe or not. It’s just a shame you have a closed mind, but that’s your problem not mine.

I wish you every possible fulfilment in your life

OMG12 · 16/04/2023 19:15

OMG12 · 16/04/2023 19:01

Ooh thank you, I’m going through a different system but will definitely take a look.

Im coming across more and more people that have moved on from Eastern Practices. I find it really interesting that people are drawn back to their local traditions once they become aware of it.

Show quote history

@QueenHippolyta just looked at that website, some really interesting stuff on there, I can’t commit to the course atm but I’m going to definitely look into the information.

I’ve been trying to concentrate on females and the feminine in the western tradition.