prayer - what's the point?

[MaMaLa321]

I'm a Christian, but I find it difficult to believe that prayer works. Or rather, that God doesn't respond to prayer.
So I can't see any point in praying for peace in Ukraine, much as I would like to. Has God set the world in motion and left us to get on with it?
I know that we all have different ways of experiencing spirituality, and I'd love to know what others think. To me, prayer feels like I'm taking down a telephone line, with someone perhaps listening at the other end but never responding.

Hi mamala,

I'm also a Christian but not all religious. I'm not sure how helpful a reply from me can be but I just wanted to share anyway. I don't usually talk about faith matters at all so it's a bit daunting to start now.

I do believe prayer works and I've developed that belief through some experiences of amazing and clear answers to my prayers. I still find prayer such a confusing business though even though I'm amazed to have been blessed in this way.

I was taught as a child that prayer was for saying thank you and not asking for things so it took me a really long time to ask and now I only ever do occasionally. I feel strongly that I want to pray about Ukraine but I have really struggled to do so. It seems like such a big thing. Such a huge multifaceted thing. I'm struggling to reach out and and actually pray. I just spend a lot of time thinking I should.

Ive found prayer journaling has been helpful before. And even just list writing! And I think I will do that this weekend.

Do you ever journal? Are you able to pray in community? (I don't really have this option but maybe it would help you?)

Not sure if any of my ramblings are any use to you but thanks for reading and take care

I struggle a bit with this too - (sometimes) I see it as; God already knows what needs to be done/who needs his help/his healing - is he only going to provide that if people pray? Will he see his children suffer if they have no one to pray for them?

I still pray though, I find that regularly spending time with God, actively praying or just quietly listening, strengthens my faith and deepens my relationship. I also find that by actively praying about a situation often highlights to me, ways in which I can actually help, sort of like a lightbulb going off in my head in a way I might not have thought about otherwise.

Thanks interesting, I often think the same @NannyR. I often rationalise that God knows what I'm thinking/feeling about something so what's the point in praying about it.

I think often that prayer just helps me to work through whatever it is I'm struggling with.

I feel quite muddled about the whole subject area tbh

I'm not Christian so you might want to just ignore my reply, but I have spent some time wrestling with the idea of prayer and I ultimately felt uncomfortable with the idea that a higher being was so invested in my life as opposed to someone else's that my prayers would be answered. My focus now is on peace for the human mind, the mind of humanity. So I sit quietly for peace within myself and I hope for the rippling out of peace from that. I recognise the insanity of war and the murder of any human being by another. I recognise that when we murder each other we don't see the divine in each other because we are so blinded by our mind. I often think of the verse 'forgive them for they know not what they do' and find it incredibly apt at a time like this. They are just my jumbled thoughts.

I don't think it's meant to be simple. There are questions that won't be answered. Doubt tears at the edges of faith habitually.

Having said that:

Engagement through prayer is for reasons possibly to do with relationship, necessary for you in relation to what is going on in Ukraine. Something big is going down and you don't mention it in a significant relationship? That's odd. So perhaps you can bring it into the space because it matters to you, not dictate a shopping list.

We're told that prayer is a powerful tool. We don't know how or why. There are a great many other things I don't understand that I'm able to accept and this is included. I don't think God wanted a world to wind up and set in motion. His purpose was not to paint a picture and then move on to the next one. If you believe at all you must believe your communication is wanted. Your presence is wanted. The fact that we're told to pray (by that I mean reach out, not ask) is evidence of that.

We don't know why prayers don't work like a debit card or why disasters are allowed to happen. Why all this free will that is even extended to mud slides and volcanoes and psychopaths when any loving father would put out a hand to stop them? We don't know. Doubt erodes like water over a jagged outcrop-plug away at the practice of faith wholeheartedly and I don't believe your faith will be obliterated. Eventually I believe you'll realise why you cannot not bring this tragedy into your faith, knowing that your concerns are a shadow of what must be felt elsewhere.

The poet Hopkins describes prayer in times of doubt as 'dead letters' (sent to nowhere) and CS Lewis describes prayer when one most needs comfort as like hearing a door locked and bolted and after that, silence. There is no easy way to say this. Your faith is a gift. Perhaps you would like more of it. Perhaps the faith that you can manage, less than you'd like, is precious in ways you can't know about here. For some of us, belief is easy. But perhaps you're the list coin who is rejoiced over more than you realise.

I find prayer a bit distasteful when it’s of the asking for things variety. I really can’t see how christians can square it with their beliefs. Prayer as a form of meditation makes sense.

My very religious father in law once ambushed me into a prayer, when we were all very upset and worried about a relative with a possible tumour. He asked Jesus to take the tumour away. Even in the middle of all the drama all I could think was, “who do you think put the tumour there? Is everything god’s plan or not, and who are you to question it?”

My in-laws pray for everything though, even completely mundane things. I find it bizarre - do they think god’s not paying attention or something? Like he’s just going to go, “oh sorry, I didn’t notice you down there until you piped up”.

People pray because it gives them a feeling of control in an insane, chaotic world that makes no sense. I’ve done it myself in times of desperation, even though I no longer believe in any god.

It’s fine to ask for things in prayer - Jesus did.
No one knows why God doesn’t answer all prayers. Perhaps he can see the greater picture.
I also think God views death in a different way to us. Perhaps he sees it as an end to our suffering in this fallen world that humans have messed up, and a start of a perfect, happy one with him. He is bringing us home perhaps?
I believe in prayer because of personal experience. It’s faith.

People pray because it gives them a feeling of control in an insane, chaotic world that makes no sense. I’ve done it myself in times of desperation, even though I no longer believe in any god.

That's why a person who has no faith prays. I don't think you're in a position to know why 'people' pray, really.

I don’t know if prayer can change the world. I wouldn’t rule it out. But I’m pretty sure it can change the person who is praying, so maybe worth doing for that reason?

For me, prayer is communion with God, a way of deepening a relationship. It benefits you, and in turn the people around you through you.

You may ask for things when you pray. You may or may not get them. God is not a mail order catalogue. It can be frustrating not understanding, but that's part and parcel of faith, I think.

I'm an atheist, but yes, prayer is one of the things about religion which I find very illogical and unjust. God can change or do anything he sees fit, right? So why would he sort things based on whether or not people prayed for them? Innocent child dies of a horrible illness or survives - depends on whether their parent prayed? Two different people find themselves homeless due to some disaster. They both pray, but only one of them ends up getting a lucky break.

Why? It just doesn't make any sense - presumably millions of people pray to be saved from illness, danger, abuse. Did the ones who suffer and die just not pray hard enough? If god exists, he could save them all if he wanted to. Why doesn't he?

We're told that prayer is a powerful tool. We don't know how or why. There are a great many other things I don't understand that I'm able to accept and this is included. I don't think God wanted a world to wind up and set in motion. His purpose was not to paint a picture and then move on to the next one. If you believe at all you must believe your communication is wanted. Your presence is wanted. The fact that we're told to pray (by that I mean reach out, not ask) is evidence of that.

You're told this by people though. Fallible, human people who have no more proof than you do that god exists. How can what you think you know about god's purpose or what kind of world he wanted be anything more than invention or what you want to believe?

You're told this by people though.

I don't deny the odd discussion with a Christian but I came to most conclusions independently through prayer and reading the Bible.

prayer helps me focus. when i ask for things (including world peace) it helps me focus on; why, for whom, and other than praying what else i could do. sometimes it gives me the courage to help in ways i wouldn't have prior to prayer.
if nothing else while i'm praying i'm putting out peaceful non chaotic vibes that will result in a tiny tiny bit of peace somewhere along the way.

Christian prayer has many forms, sitting in silent contemplation just being in the presence of God, vocal prayers - when we pray out loud, familiar ritual prayer such as liturgy and well known prayers (Our Father, Hail Mary, Prayer to St Michael etc.). It can be Lectio Divina where we read maybe just one line or a passage of the Bible and then spend time in prayer letting it penetrate us. We can pray in joy, sorrow, anger. We have a relationship with God and "In Him, we live and move and have our being" so not relating to him with the understanding that he already knows us doesn't make sense! Holding back or keeping things "secret" from God is amusing. Singing is also considered "praying twice". In prayer we open ourselves up to God and acknowledge his constant presence. We can be silent, thankful, in love with God and contemplate the mysteries of God. We can also share anything, including the minutiae of our daily lives and the things we care about.

"I find prayer a bit distasteful when it’s of the asking for things variety. I really can’t see how christians can square it with their beliefs. Prayer as a form of meditation makes sense."

Jesus told us to ask God and he used examples of people who prayed constantly even to the point of "annoying" God! He told us God is Abba which literally means Daddy and that God wants a truly honest relationship with us. So of course we can ask for prayers to be answered. Daily prayer, having private prayer time transforms us. I have had cancer as have had two of our children, and we have all made a full recovery. So many people and communities prayed for us. We don't know why prayer is answered and why it isn't (or not in the way we want).

For prayer to make a difference in your life it needs to be just like any other relationship. The person you love most in the world you easily make time daily to be with, and God IS love. If you never make time for God you are not going to know God.

I'm an atheist, but yes, prayer is one of the things about religion which I find very illogical and unjust. God can change or do anything he sees fit, right? So why would he sort things based on whether or not people prayed for them? Innocent child dies of a horrible illness or survives - depends on whether their parent prayed? Two different people find themselves homeless due to some disaster. They both pray, but only one of them ends up getting a lucky break.

Why? It just doesn't make any sense - presumably millions of people pray to be saved from illness, danger, abuse. Did the ones who suffer and die just not pray hard enough? If god exists, he could save them all if he wanted to. Why doesn't he?

I find this sort of objection irritating. It proposes a rather bizarre god who flips through his prayer mail daily, picking and choosing the people he wants to respond to. I guess that's basically what the OP is proposing too, so it's a fair response, but I would suggest trying to disconnect the concept of prayer with the idea of placing an order with Amazon. Prayer is a way of clarifying your thoughts and feelings, centering yourself, making peace with the world around you. As part of the process you might express wishes/desires but if those do come to be, it isn't because you "prayed correctly".

I don't deny the odd discussion with a Christian but I came to most conclusions independently through prayer and reading the Bible.

That's what I meant. People wrote the bible. God didn't.

Prayer is a way of clarifying your thoughts and feelings, centering yourself, making peace with the world around you. As part of the process you might express wishes/desires but if those do come to be, it isn't because you "prayed correctly".

Oh, so prayer isn't about asking god for things? In fact from your description it sounds like it has nothing inherently to do with god at all. It's quite possible to think about things, centre yourself and make peace with the world around you as an atheist.

Asking God for things is one aspect of prayer but only one small aspect in an active prayer life. Prayer is sharing the life of God and being transformed.
When I was an atheist I knew absolutely nothing about prayer and spirituality and as a Brit, where most people are agnostic/atheist/disinterested we generally have a very shallow simplistic view of prayer. I couldn't see the point of prayer or reading the Bible or so many prcatices and impressions I had generally of Christianity and faith in general. There is massive ignorance of this in the modern secular world but people pontificate as if they are experts. Once I had an encounter with God I understood the point of prayer and also the desire the pray.

A good example of the disconnect with Christian spirituality in the UK is a documentary I watched about Catholic Monks who had made a CD of Chant that had become extremely popular. As part of market research for the next album a group of women who bought the first album were asked why. One woman said she absolutely loved how peaceful it was and the atmosphere it created when it was played and that it was beautiful. The researcher than asked about the religious aspect and the woman became hostile and said something along the lines of "I don't want anything to do with religion". In the meantime the album she was listening to and loved was of the Monks literally praying the Divine Office and praises to God. The entire album was of men praying in a tradition sung (chant) way. The calm meditation and peace it produced was due to it being focused ancient communal prayer. The peace didn't come from nowhere it came from the steady serenity of a life of prayer. She was listening to constant Christian prayer and yet was oblivious.

I feel (and I include myself in this until I learnt more) that there is a deep spiritual illiteracy in the UK. People don't even understand historical Christianity that is all around them.

@MaMaLa321

I'm a Christian, but I find it difficult to believe that prayer works. Or rather, that God doesn't respond to prayer. So I can't see any point in praying for peace in Ukraine, much as I would like to. Has God set the world in motion and left us to get on with it? I know that we all have different ways of experiencing spirituality, and I'd love to know what others think. To me, prayer feels like I'm taking down a telephone line, with someone perhaps listening at the other end but never responding.

Christianity is all about relationships - relationships with other people and relationship with God.

When you are in a relationship, you talk to the other person. You don't always expect a quick fire response, eg when you are talking to your children. You often know what they want from you, but it doesn't stop you talking to them.

If you are not convinced about the power of prayer, consider keeping a prayer diary to see all the amazing number of times that God answers prayer. Also, try to pray with other people.

Google for Alpha - why and how do I pray

www.bing.com/videos/search?q=why+and+how+do+i+pray&view=detail&mid=7FF725FDE7A88D2E33387FF725FDE7A88D2E3338&FORM=VIRE

I'm an atheist and I'm certain prayer changes the person who does it.

I have a very dear friend who is a lifelong Quaker and she talks about 'holding in the light'. I have tried it - to focus my mind in a meditative way on someone or a situation and to keep my mind there when it slides off, and to see the image of them surrounded by light. After I did this for a particular person, an action I could take popped into my head and seemed exactly right.

I can imagine that not working or being distorted, but I think it can really help.

That's interesting, PermanentTemporary. So I guess you're suggesting that everyone can maybe benefit from taking a meditative approach to the various issues in their life, and that the religious person will then attribute any positive effects of that to god, while an atheist will attribute it to the meditative process itself. Makes sense.

It's something I struggle with as I have to try really hard not to turn prayer into a shopping list. I think asking for things, or at least sharing our feelings, hope and fears with God, is a natural part of the conversation but can't be all of it. Often I'll ask for understanding around a situation rather than a specific outcome, or the strength to deal with whatever happens if it's not the outcome I want.

I read the Bible from beginning to end last year (the Bible Project, really recommend) and found it really informative. The Bible is very clear that justice doesn't always happen the way we expect it to - bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people all the time. Ours isn't to try and understand it, we just have to trust that God has a larger picture and purpose than we will ever come close to understanding. The Book of Job was especially helpful for me in understanding this.