Page 2 | Struggling to answer DC questions about the meaning of life

lottiegarbanzo · 08/03/2021 10:17

Oh, good point about nihilism and teens. That reminds me of the book / film Persepolis, which does a great job of demonstrating how self-indulgent that position is. How much feeling free to adopt it is a luxury, predicated upon having all one physical needs met and living within a politically stable regime. How that cannot and should not be taken for granted.

Nothing wrong with being a bit self-indulgent as a teenager of course. Par for the course. There is definitely more to life than eternal teenagerdom though!

goldielockdown2 · 08/03/2021 10:20

Your DC sounds like they've got it sussed! Sounds like me and I've never changed my outlook. Things are what they are. Nothing to worry about.

lottiegarbanzo · 08/03/2021 10:26

I'd recommend voluntary work, with less privileged people, as a great way to help her grow out of the 'what's the point' position and see that there are practical steps that can be taken, that do improve people's lives, in ways that make a very real difference, to them. That will help tackle the sense of helplessness you describe, in relation to family and friends too (her sense, not their situation in particular). Help her develop a sense of purpose, personal power and the value of achievement. It may also be relevant to medical school applications.

alexdgr8 · 08/03/2021 20:36

don't waste an a=level on psychology or philosophy.
medicine is the most highly competitive course, get solid sciences and maths.

lottiegarbanzo · 09/03/2021 10:09

Oh yes, when I say they might enjoy learning about x, y, z, I mean in their own time, reading around, as an additional leisure course, or later in their life.

I take it as read that a teenager who is bright and motivated enough to study medicine, will have looked up the entry requirements, sought advice if needed and will choose the right A-levels.

One of the things that is brilliant about studying a bit of philosophy, is that it offers the realisation that everything you have ever thought has been thought before. (I think extensive reading, plus creative writing, would do the same). That the possibility of having a truly original thought is quite low (and that trying to have even a small one is an active effort). On the one hand that adds to the 'what's the point of this life' bleakness but on the other, it demonstrates that the present teenage angsty position is but one position amongst many, many others, so opens things up and offers an amazing connectedness to people from different times and places, locating the participant as 'a part of the main'. Then raising the question of how ideas inform life choices.

If studied actively, it also offers the critical analytical tools that allow the participant to assess those and any other ideas and think about which interpretation they accept and why. For someone interested in science, the philosophy of science is pretty interesting too. It's not necessarily taught as part of science courses but does provide an important context as to why it's done the way it is.

But, as I said above, I think doing something active, outward-looking and connecting with people who can't take everything for granted, might be the healthier choice right now.

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 12/03/2021 16:50

I don't think there's anything 'wrong' with your DC. It sounds to me rather like what a lot of us go through when we're told as children that we need to trust adults because they know better than us, we're exposed to religion by adults, then when we grow a bit older we realise that those 'comforting' stories are just that, and in fact it's all complete fantasy.

There's nothing remotely bleak about not believing there's a 'point' to life, on the contrary. Atheism is enormously liberating. You are free to derive your own purpose and meaning from life free of nonsensical religious dogma, and content in the knowledge that the universe functioned perfectly well before you existed, and will continue to do so after you are gone. Once you realise the 'afterlife' is just a ridiculous concoction of the human imagination, you are free from the strictures of living your life as if there's a code of conduct for membership.

I agree that some light philosophy reading might be helpful, because it can help with rationalising why adults still wilfully deceive children with nonsense about deities, heaven, the afterlife etc while simultaneously telling them adults know best. It can be a bit of a rough landing once the child is old enough to do a bit of critical thinking of their own.

lazylinguist · 12/03/2021 17:32

I wouldn't worry - it's good for tyem to think about stuff like that. I always think that if life had an actual purpose, that would be quite a heavy burden and quite restrictive. The great thing about there being no particular point to life is that you get to create purpose yourself.

There's a thing in The Hitch Hiker's Guide To The Galaxy called the 'total perspective vortex'. It's function is to show you a glimpse of the entire universe, with you marked as an unimaginably insignificant speck. It's used as a punishment and makes most people lose their minds!

But I've always thought it sounded rather reassuring. Being insignificant means you can get on and live your life without worrying too much about your impact on the world. I can't really understand why people are so desperate to be remembered! After all, you will never even know whether they remember you or not!

MeanMrMustardSeed · 12/03/2021 17:45

I would encourage him to read C S Lewis. The Great Divorce is a great one. It is written from a Christian perspective, but explores lots of these questions.

Shufflebudge · 12/03/2021 17:50

I was raised a Christian so no big life changing experience for me, but I’ve had plenty of ‘what’s the point’ moments throughout my life. I’ve tried exploring many avenues, rationalised everything, but I always get to a point where I can’t explain things anymore. There is something else and if there wasn’t, there’d be no hope. This planet is an awful state, and it’s so reassuring to know it’s not all for nothing, and there will come a day when the world is made new again

Hang on let me get this straight. You believe in God because a. You can’t explain things. B. you think this world is so awful it has to get better?

What the what now?

Shufflebudge · 12/03/2021 17:52

Being insignificant means you can get on and live your life without worrying too much about your impact on the world

Indeed, it’s freeing and uplifting to me

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 12/03/2021 17:56

It's the sheer breath-taking arrogance of presuming the universe gives a single shiny shite about a planet inhabited by talking monkeys

Twattergy · 12/03/2021 17:57

My 9 year old DS asks the same questions. I think it is a sign of a lively and engaged mind! I always engage in the conversation and don't shy away from it. I say I don't know, what do you think? and have a good chat. I do think existence is ultimately pointless and there is no god, but that doesn't worry me. We can still revel in the wonder of existence and the world just for its own sake. If as parents we can talk about life biggest questions with our children that in itself is a wonderful thing.

EileenGC · 12/03/2021 20:32

Hang on let me get this straight. You believe in God because a. You can’t explain things. B. you think this world is so awful it has to get better?

What the what now?

That is so not what I said. Read the post I quoted.

I believe in God despite not being able to explain why he would be the one who created life and this planet.

And yes, this world is awful (and also beautiful). Just look around you. There is hunger, there are illnesses and death, we're literally destroying other people through wars, and animals through exploitation of their natural habitats. We're making it worse day by day, because we as a species are selfish and most of us couldn't care less about the state the planet was in. We're not so insignificant that nothing we do has an impact. It does, every action we take has an impact on this planet and the people around us. This is regardless of there being a God or not. Even if there isn't a God, I couldn't behave how I wanted when I have others around me and a planet I need to preserve for future generations.

lazylinguist · 13/03/2021 09:13

Even if there isn't a God, I couldn't behave how I wanted when I have others around me and a planet I need to preserve for future generations.

But what you do on a personal level has no discernible effect on preserving the planet unless you have a huge level of influence over massive numbers of people. Don't get me wrong - I absolutely believe we should all do our bit for the environment, because if everybody does, we might change things. But, considered globally and across time, the vast, vast majority of individuals go through their lives having little effect on the world at all.

Shebangshebong · 09/12/2021 06:52

Just another POV. I was like this as a teen and it's just grown worse throughout my 20s.

speakout · 09/12/2021 16:05

Life IS pointless, unless you have a religious faith

Insulting and derogatory.

Again highlights christian arrogance.

Memeandmeagain · 11/12/2021 19:32

@Howmanysyllabasisthat

Eldest DC is not a typical teenager in many respects. Very thoughtful, questioning, highly academic wants to be a Doctor etc and apply to medical school. Always been a bit morbid and clinical about things like the dead rabbit etc didn’t get too upset - more than average life expectancy etc comments. When much younger I thought they were so matter of fact I wondered about the lack of empathy. That changed as they grew and they are kind and compassionate.

Lockdown is fine. Has thrown themselves into school work etc - great but...
Asking more and more questions daily on what on Earth the point of it all is? They have investigated all the religions and come to the conclusion they are all stories, no one having more rights over what is true than others. Been to church, synagogue, Hindu temple etc and really tried to explore them all. Thinks they are all made to make humans try to feel better that life has a purpose when it doesn’t. Has become very cynical - we work, pay tax, to support those that can’t, those that play the system or the elite. And then we die and are forgotten like little ants - was the comment today. I was a Christian but I don’t believe any more although I’d like to. Walking a popular walk that went past a cemetery today they asked to walk inside - lots of children graves, I got emotional and they said at least they didn’t have the stress of life, not meant unkindly but as in life is not hearts and roses but bloody tough. I’ve had a tough life and she sees others elderly and in pain, family trauma (one of her friend’s gran for example is estranged from her friend’s mum and everyone unhappy about it) etc and they are really questioning me on ‘what’s the point of it all?’ Their grandparents (my parents) are atheists who helpfully are ‘no point we are all work food. We live for holidays and nice weather etc - my Dc worries about me - my ex was abusive and has no contact with myself or them. I think they worry that I will be alone without them, but it’s all a bit depressing and morose. Any good books for them? Or things to look at? I told them today that philosophers have been looking at the meaning of life for thousands of years and we still don’t have a good answer. Any pointers? Conversation techniques of it.

What does anyone really think is the meaning of life?
Is anyone really happy? Etc are daily questions

@Howmanysyllabasisthat, Life is not pointless nor is everything on earth and the universe created for fun and amusements.

Your DC is very smart and intelligent by questioning our very existence. That is a sign of great wisdom. Now, all that's left to do is find the answers.

I see that you mentioned you have already looked at various religions and did not find the answer.

I would wholeheartedly recommend reading the Qur'an and I will guarantee that the answers to the questions are in there.

Don't write something off because what other people say or what you hear.

It is always the best policy to find things out for yourself and decide.

Don't rely on my or anyone else's prejudices.

Everyone who have intellect, wisdom and fair common sense should use it to make up their own mind after researching it themselves.

End of the day, every person is responsible for themselves so, better make sure those you follow are right.

Everyone is free to believe or not believing in whatever they like or want. The difference is proof.

Some people don't believe in God, that's fine. Some others say humans have evolved from monkeys and apes (yet we still have monkeys and apes in the zoo and forests) but, that's OK too.

Yet, others believe in some kind of Diety, that's okay too.

And finally a group believes only in One God, no partners or sons or any other associates.

But, who is right?

It's time for everyone to find out themselves if they care about the question of, where are we here?

I say the answers are in Qur'an. That's only my opinion of course.

youvegottenminuteslynn · 11/12/2021 20:00

Life IS pointless, unless you have a religious faith. For atheists, this world is all you get, with all the unfairness, illness, poverty, war, etc. And then you die and face oblivion. What a bleak belief! For Christians, we have the assurance given by Jesus, that He would prepare a place for us after death, in the presence of God. Where all wrongs would be righted, and God would dry all tears.

My life isn't pointless, thanks.

My life includes people I love, doing things I enjoy, learning, discovering new places, helping other people, being kind because I genuinely want to be not because I'm scared of punishment or want a reward. There is plenty to enjoy in life without faith.

If you have faith that makes you happy, that's good for you and I'm glad it helped you at what must have been an impossibly hard time (I'm so sorry about your husband ) but telling people that their life "IS pointless" if they have no religious faith doesn't sound like something Jesus would have done, if my understanding is correct?

I grew up in a religious home and went to a religious junior school. The attitude that people who aren't religious are worth less as people was prevalent and disappointing. It was an excellent way to turn a huge number of us off religion.

SSOYS · 11/12/2021 20:03

Not sure if you said how old your DC is but if it’s 15+ maybe get them a copy of the Myth of Sisyphus by Camus. It’s short and a fairly easy read.

Keepitonthedownlow · 11/12/2021 20:20

I'd say to him, there might be a 'meaning of life but even the most intelligent human is unlikely to ever understand the full nature of the universe or of human consciousness. So the best thing to do with your life is to experience what you can and perhaps some meaning will unfold itself to you.

The blind men and the elephant is a good parable from Buddhism that shows the limits of our awareness. We're all just scrabbling in the dark. But that doesn't mean we should give up, but rather we can revel in the mystery and keep learning.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant

Struggling to answer DC questions about the meaning of life

Memeandmeagain · 12/12/2021 00:13

Why are we all here on this earth?

(Meaning in English)

We (The One and only God) will show them Our signs in the universe and in their own selves, until it becomes manifest to them that this (the Quran) is the truth” (Qur'an, chapter 41, verse 53)

And I (God) did not create the jinn and mankind except to worship Me. (Qur'an, chapter 51, verse 56)

O mankind, indeed We have created you from male and female and made you peoples and tribes that you may know one another. Indeed, the most noble of you in the sight of God is the most righteous of you. Indeed, God is Knowing and Aware. (Qur'an, chapter 49, verse 13)

"O David, indeed We have made you a successor upon the earth, so judge between the people in truth and do not follow [your own] desire, as it will lead you astray from the way of (God)." Indeed, those who go astray from the way of (God) will have a severe punishment for having forgotten the Day of Account.

And We did not create the heaven and the earth and that between them aimlessly. That is the assumption of those who disbelieve, so woe to those who disbelieve from the Fire.

Or should we treat those who believe and do righteous deeds like corrupters in the land? Or should We treat those who fear God like the wicked?

[This is] a blessed Book which We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], that they might reflect upon its verses and that those of understanding would be reminded.
(Qur'an, chapter 38, verses 26-29)

Say [O Muhammad]: 'I am but a mortal man like all of you. It has been revealed unto me that your God is the One and Only God. Hence, whoever looks forward [with hope and awe] to meeting his Sustainer [on Judgment Day], let him do righteous deeds, and let him not ascribe unto anyone or anything a share in the worship due to his Sustainer!' (Qur'an, chapter 18, verses 110)

And We have not sent you, [O Muhammad], except as a bringer of good tidings and a warner.

Say, "I do not ask of you for any payment - only that whoever wills might take a Path to his Lord."

And rely upon the Ever-Living who does not die, and exalt [Allah] with His praise. And sufficient is He to be, with the sins of His servants, Acquainted -
He who created the heavens and the earth and what is between them in six days (periods) and then established Himself above the Throne - the Most Merciful, so ask about Him one well informed. (Qur'an, chapter 25, verses 56-59)

Memeandmeagain · 12/12/2021 00:16

Just few verses to think about, how did these now established facts came to be in the Qur'an over 1,400 years?

And it is He who has released [simultaneously] the two seas, one fresh and sweet and one salty and bitter, and He placed between them a barrier and prohibiting partition.

And it is He who has created from water a human being and made him [a relative by] lineage and marriage. And ever is your Lord competent [concerning creation]. (Qur'an, chapter 25, verses 53-54)

And it is We who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it. (Qur'an, chapter 51, verse 47)

Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before We clove them asunder, and We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe? (Qur'an, chapter 21, verse 30)

Then He turned to the heaven when it was smoke… (Qur'an, chapter 41, verse 11)

“And We made the sky a protected ceiling, but they, from its signs, are turning away” (Qur'an, chapter 21, verse 32)

“We sent down Iron with its great inherent strength and its many benefits for humankind” (Qur'an, chapter 57, verse 25)

“We shall send those who reject our revelations to the (hell) fire. When their skins have been burned away, We shall replace them with new ones so that they may continue to feel the pain: God is almighty, all-wise” (Qur'an, chapter 4, verse 56)

youvegottenminuteslynn · 12/12/2021 00:18

And it is We who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it. (Qur'an, chapter 51, verse 47)

What 'established fact' does this contain?

youvegottenminuteslynn · 12/12/2021 00:19

And it is He who has created from water a human being and made him [a relative by] lineage and marriage. And ever is your Lord competent [concerning creation]. (Qur'an, chapter 25, verses 53-54)

And this one? What established fact does it contain?

Disclaimer: it's late and I'm tired, so maybe I'm missing something obvious!

Avarua · 12/12/2021 01:25

Life just 'is' for most beings but our gift as humans has been to experience love, the most powerful force. So the point of it all is to love and be loved. The Greek philosophers listed all the different types of love. Aim to experience them all.