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Philosophy/religion

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anyone else's toddler ever spoken about 'past life' experiences??????

326 replies

noonar · 18/09/2007 13:33

now, am not saying (necessarily) that i believe in reincarnation, but i've just had a rather spooky conversation with my 3 yo dd. (just 3)

the gist of it was that she's bored with being 3 and wants to be a teenager again. when i asked her where i was whilst she was busy being a teenager, she said that she had a different mummy then.

the conversation went on, and then she said that she got sick and she died.

as i said earlier, i'm not saying i believe any of this, but it certainly sent a shiver down my spine.

OP posts:
ICBINEG · 10/04/2013 12:52

What I genuinely don't understand is why I am being accused of not admitting the possibility of reincarnation.

I have engaged in an attempt to determine the relative likelihood of reincarnation or coincidence. How could you do that without admitting the possibility that coincidence isn't enough?

As with seekers zebra, asking what the probability is that this is a hoof print from a zebra or a horse implies the idea that both are possible.

If you are in the middle of a riding stable in kent, then the answer is maybe millions to one that it is horse not zebra.

If you are near an African watering hole the answer is maybe millions to one that it is a zebra not a horse.

So by analogy, our hoof print is a toddler telling a story about something that did not happen to them, that they haven't read or seen, but that turns out to be true.

There are (at least) two possible causes.

  1. coincidence. If enough toddlers tell enough stories some of them are bound to match up with truth just by chance. No matter how detailed the 'hit' is, names, dates, places etc. if you have billions of chances you will eventually get it exactly right BY CHANCE.
  1. reincarnation. If people are actually reincarnated then at least some of them may remember previous lives and be able to speak about them.

My argument is that BOTH of these options can explain the 'hoof print'.

So that leaves us with relative probability of each being correct.

Number 1. must be happening. Toddlers are known to confuse dreams and reality, to miss-remember things and even to become strangely fixated that things are called different names to what they are (mine is calling me Nanny instead of mummy for no particular reason). We also know the physiological processes of brain development that lead to these 'mistakes'. So the combination of the scientifically known and understood aspects of toddler behaviour with the shear number of toddlers and the size of the planet mean that it is a statistical inevitability that some toddler somewhere will even now be telling a story that sounds spookily like your childhood.

So coincidence is SUFFICIENT to explain the hoof print by itself. This doesn't rule out that reincarnation is happening, it just means that the toddler phenomenon cannot prove the existence of reincarnation, because an alternative explanation is not only possible but in fact likely.

The existence of horses in a stable in Kent where a hoof print is found does not disprove the existence of zebra. But it does mean that the hoof print cannot be used as evidence for the existence of zebra. Because the hoof print not only may belong to a horse, but is likely to belong to a horse.

So my view on this is that there is no direct evidence to demonstrate reincarnation that cannot be ascribed to a more likely already known process (coincidence).

There is also a huge amount of circumstantial evidence arguing against reincarnation, like the massive rarity of anyone reporting past lives, the unknown processes of soul creation, transition, and destruction. Similarly there is no evidence that human consciousness is anything but the product of the physical brain or any known mechanism for consciousness to continue after cell death.

So having been open to the possibility and looked at all the available data, I come to the conclusion that it is extraordinarily unlikely that reincarnation occurs.

seeker · 10/04/2013 13:01

When she was a toddler my dd spent ages as a flamingo, another ages as a lemur, and a particularly awful week as a spectacularly bratty baby called Holly. Among other alter egos.

Holly had a complete and complex back story which I remember in graphic detail to this day.

Ds insisted ongoing everywhere backwards, doing a truck reversing beep, beep, beep as he did so.

Both of them often wanted to pretend that they were the mummy and daddy and dp and I were the children.

None of this is evidence- or even a suggestion that they were reincarnated!

bumbleymummy · 10/04/2013 13:08

I can accept that a child's random story could sound like some person's life somewhere down to coincidence. I find it harder to believe that a child could give details about names/places/events that match up down to coincidence.

Saying 'I used to live in France and had a black cat' is not the same as saying your name was X, you lived in a specific town, your house had particular features, your parents were called Y and Z and you died/were killed in a certain way.

seeker · 10/04/2013 13:11

The trouble is, bumbley, that whenever any of those specific stories are investigated, they turn out to be a hoax, or unconscious suggestion on the part of the parent. Sad, but true.

bumbleymummy · 10/04/2013 13:16

Seeker, do you think people are saying that every story their child tells is about a past life? My children haven't told me anything that makes me think they are talking about past lives but that doesn't mean that I don't think that other children haven't...

bumbleymummy · 10/04/2013 13:18

I haven't found that seeker - pretty much all of the explanations I've read (some of them have been your own links) have either made some assumptions of have accepted that they can't explain certain aspects of the story.

munchkinmaster · 10/04/2013 13:19

I googled that Joanne cocknell stuff yesterday (or whatever her name was) and it was really interesting how what looked like massive coincidence wasn't really. I also thought it was telling that the kids who as elderly people accepted her as thier mother had basically had thier lives ruined (split up into orphanages) by thier mothers death. No wonder they were accepting of her and the fact her appearance reunited the siblings.

seeker · 10/04/2013 13:23

Bumbley- I don't agree. If you would like to give me one of the cases you think is sound, I'll do some digging.

And no, I don't think everyone thinks their child's stories mean they are reincarnated. But if I was inclined to believe such things, I could easily have believed that my dd was a reincarnation of the deeply ghastly Baby Holly she channelled for a while. The amount of detail she put into the back story was extraordinary.

bumbleymummy · 10/04/2013 13:29

Maybe if you were able to find a baby Holly that matched that incredibly detailed back story you would feel different :)

seeker · 10/04/2013 13:32

Maybe. But more likelymif I had a thorough look at the back story, I would find bits of the lives of people she knew about, things she had watched on telly, stories she had been read, family history she had overheard.....

Have you found a case you want me to look into yet?

bumbleymummy · 10/04/2013 14:06

We've looked at some of the same cases and I've read your links and I've already commented on them. Any other case I present to you will be more of the same - oh well they might have heard about that from somewhere else, someone may have told them that, it is probably just a coincidence that they knew that information etc etc. I do tend to read the 'explanations' as well - some of them aren't that convincing either. They just go from the position of - this is what we know to be true (at the moment) so therefore it's the only possible explanation even if it doesn't quite fit. I know that's the position that you feel most comfortable with so we won't really get very far :)

littlebitofthislittlebitofthat · 10/04/2013 16:35

Okay... so you guys don't believe, and we are happy to.....

can we get back to the experiences now??????

Pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee?

bumbleymummy · 10/04/2013 17:18

I'm with you littlebit! :)

ICBINEG · 10/04/2013 18:01

littlebit ahhh that's sad. I thought you wanted to embrace the science?

But I guess now you know you would have to do more than just say 'yeah but I still think it might be' you have had a change of heart.

rockinhippy · 10/04/2013 19:27

I sometimes wonder, how the hell we as a species ever managed to make any scientific advances at all, when the scientific bods ares so seemingly closed minded - surprised we are not still stuck without wheels, believing the world to be flat Confused

bumbleymummy · 10/04/2013 19:42

Exactly rockinhippy. I guess there must be a few open minded ones out there!

seeker · 10/04/2013 20:15

Open minded is fantastic. And of course there are things that can't be explained-yet. But if things can be explained, surely it's a good idea to exhaust all the rational explanations before starting to look at the "out there" ones? Apart from anything else, it helps you avoid being conned by the unscrupulous. And there are many unscrupulous people in the "woo" world.

Here is an example. My brother went with a friend to a hypnotism show, and during it his friend was hypnotised, and, somewhat to the amazement of the hypnotist and the incredible excitement of the audience, started to talk about a past life and an Anglo Saxon. He went into huge detail, naming names and places and everyone had a fantastic evening. Except my brother, who recognised everything he said from a book they had both read at school 40 years earlier.

ICBINEG · 10/04/2013 20:59

Do you realise that 'open minded' doesn't actually equate to 'believe any old shit with no evidence for it'?

Open minded means being willing to look at the evidence freshly even when you suspect there is little chance it will make any difference. It means being willing to change your opinion in the light of new evidence.

So here we are looking at your evidence and thinking about it afresh....how is that closed minded?

Or would we only be open minded if we agree with you?

rockinhippy · 10/04/2013 21:09

Yawn!!

@ bumbleymummy - yes, there must be a few, otherwise we as a race would still be stuck in the dark ages - I expect its the successful ones Grin

It's a real shame though, these threads could be really interesting, people would feel able to share some great stories & experiences - if it wasn't for a small handful who,insist on banging the same drum & can't read the thread title Hmm

ICBINEG · 10/04/2013 21:40

awesome debating skills rockin...you've literally blown me away.

I will give up this life of science and be proper credulous for the rest of my life. Pass me the sugar pills, crystals and rekki manual...I mean there must be some chance they work? Would be closed minded to think the lack of evidence means anything other than that the so called scientists aren't working hard enough....

bumbleymummy · 10/04/2013 21:41

Yep! :)

bumbleymummy · 10/04/2013 21:41

That was to rockinhippy.

ICBINEG · 10/04/2013 21:46

OMG!

You remember the lost yellow bear story my DD was going on about, that I mentioned up thread?

Well I looked into it and the very week that my DD was complaining about a yellow bear going missing this was posted on freecycle :

'My daughter lost her loved small yellow bear at summer camp. But I know unclaimed items in lost and found get donated, so im hoping if someone has seen or bought a small yellow faded dirty "loved" beanie baby type bear in that area to please contact me because she is heartbroken, and no replacement would be the same. Thank you!'

The advert originated in the litchfield area so there is no WAY my DD could have known about this!

Inclusionist · 10/04/2013 22:02

Ooh I haven't read the entire thread (and see seeker has done her bunfight thing).

However, my DS (2.7) said to me 'we used to live in a different house mummy' this week.

He's only just developed enough vocab to start describing his dreams so I'm sure it's that, but it did feel weird. People described him as an 'old soul' from birth and I do feel like I've known him much longer than 2 and a bit years and have this strange sense that we've been together before.

Inclusionist · 10/04/2013 22:03

I have a neurology degree btw, but can still deal with a bit of woo!

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