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Original poster

For anyone who knows anything about Christianity.....

31 replies

wobblyknicks · 04/10/2004 14:41

This is definitely NOT meant to be a thread about the rights and wrongs of a certain religion - I just have some honest questions that I'd like some Christian viewpoints on.

I was raised as a Christian but definitely wouldn't call myself a Christian now, but still have some questions left from my upbringing and am interested to know what Christians on here think about it;

  1. Why did God create humans? For company? And why only on one planet?

  2. If God, being all-seeing, knew humans would end up 'going wrong' - why bother? If he really loved us, wouldn't it be better to save us the 'heartache'?

  3. When humans did 'go wrong' why did God decide to drown us all (the flood) BEFORE deciding he was loving enough to let us all have a chance at going to heaven?

As I said before, I'm not a Christian and am not trying to undermine Christianity by asking these questions, I'm just purely curious on how Christians see these 'issues' and my curiosity has got the better of me!!!

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welshmum · 04/10/2004 15:00

Wobblyknicks I'm probably not the sort of Christian you're after ie.woolly, liberal etc I don't really have any answers... but for what it's worth.
1.I think God flicked the switch and we evolved, so he started the creation ball rolling and it ended up with us. I don't know about only one inhabited planet - who does??
2.I don't think we all 'go wrong'. Some of us go a bit wrong, learn from it and then are able to help others through the experience we've had.
Maybe heartache is part of being human, maybe we can only be truly happy if we know what sadness is?
3. I think the Flood was how the writers of the Old Testament explained a natural disaster that had happened to them.

Original poster
wobblyknicks · 04/10/2004 15:02

Don't worry welshmum - I don't mind if you're not woolly enough!!! but -

  1. Why bother 'flicking the switch' at all?

  2. We've 'gone wrong' according to God's plan and if we didn't exist we wouldn't have to overcome sadness to be happy.

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Socci · 04/10/2004 15:02

Message withdrawn

Original poster
wobblyknicks · 04/10/2004 15:06

No Socci, thanks for your viewpoint. Was just curious to see what the answers would be - not being Christian I don't have to believe in the theology of it but it just had me wondering how people dealt with it.

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Socci · 04/10/2004 15:07

Message withdrawn

welshmum · 04/10/2004 15:08

1.I don't know why the switch got flicked. I just know that I've bought the idea that there is some thing out there keeping a watching eye on us.
2. Do you mean that the human race has gone wrong in general - that we're not perfect? So why do we exist at all? I don't quite understand...

Original poster
wobblyknicks · 04/10/2004 15:11

wm - I mean that as far as I understand Christianity - God had a plan for us to be perfect but because we've got free will we mucked that up. So as he'd have known before creating us that we'd muck his plan up and make ourselves unhappy when he didn't mean us to be, why didn't he not create us and save us the unhappiness?

I think as a race we're not perfect but that doesn't mean we shouldn't exist. But I also don't believe there is a God watching over us so that changes things from my viewpoint.

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Original poster
wobblyknicks · 04/10/2004 15:14

That sounded a bit muddled - what I meant was that from my own view, as we are here anyway, having happiness and sadness DOES make life richer and worth living but if you are the person with the choice of starting things off, like God, then wouldn't you choose to create nothing rather than something that will 'go wrong' and then have to struggle to achieve happiness?

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welshmum · 04/10/2004 15:18

Maybe he took a gamble that we wouldn't muck things up, maybe he had great hopes for us? I think he was right to have great hopes - there's so much good in us....
I'm pretty rubbish at this. I have a very simple faith. I know that without what I believe I would have had a far harder time dealing with what I have. I am comforted and find peace in my faith - not to say that I haven't questioned/rejected it big time at certain points in my life.

welshmum · 04/10/2004 15:21

I sound muddled too Maybe life is richer and we are more fully alive for experiencing what gets thrown at us? If I was him I'd rather have us lot to watch than nothing at all....

Original poster
wobblyknicks · 04/10/2004 15:22

wm - you're not rubbish at it at all - if your faith helps you and makes you a better person then it doesn't matter that you don't know the answer to every question that weird MN'ers come up with!!! But I've met a lot of people who literally go by every single word the Bible says and there's so many holes in it, in my opinion of course, that I always wonder whether they have 'answers' or just ignore the questions.

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Original poster
wobblyknicks · 04/10/2004 15:24

wm - I definitely think life is much better for the fact that we have to go through so much 'bad' stuff - but my personal viewpoint is that we all have souls that will continue after our human selves die but that there isn't a 'God' watching over us, so there's no-one 'to blame' for the fact that we have to go through bad times as well as good.

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welshmum · 04/10/2004 15:26

I've met alot of people like that too and you and I would have more in common than I would with them I guess. It's one of the reasons why I didn't have anything to do with church for a long while. Then I found somewhere that suited me ie loads of questions, loads of doubts and a vague belief that Jesus had some stuff to say that made getting along with your fellow humans a bit easier. I'm sure there will be people far less woolly than me who'll have some 'proper' answers though.

welshmum · 04/10/2004 15:27

sorry posted crossed

Ameriscot2004 · 04/10/2004 15:27

"1) Why did God create humans? For company? And why only on one planet? "

For his enjoyment and company. We don't know about other planets, as the Bible only tells us about this planet.

"2) If God, being all-seeing, knew humans would end up 'going wrong' - why bother? If he really loved us, wouldn't it be better to save us the 'heartache'?"

Because God loves us, he gave us free will.

"3) When humans did 'go wrong' why did God decide to drown us all (the flood) BEFORE deciding he was loving enough to let us all have a chance at going to heaven?"

There was so much sin in the world before the flood, and God made his wrathful judgment to eradicate it and give us a fresh start. But he also promised not to do the same again. We believe that God has plans for those who did not know Jesus, and we are pretty sure that people like Abraham would have found his place in Heaven.

Have you thought about going on an Alpha course?

Original poster
wobblyknicks · 04/10/2004 15:36

Thanks Ameriscot - I have actually done an Alpha course (parents thought it would cure me of my atheist tendencies!!) but, without trying to sound big headed, it was mostly 'theory' I already knew - my problem is not the knowledge but the fact that I can't accept that a lot of Christians seem to accept quite easily. Like;

  1. If God is really so much of a 'higher power' why does he need to make company for himself?? Seems a bit weird thinking of an all-powerful God getting lonely!!!

  2. This one seems a bit of a paradox - he gave us free will to muck things up but he knew we would so why not just forget the whole idea?

  3. Again, if he's a perfect God, how come he suddenly had a 'hissy fit' and decided to drown everyone before 'calming down' and trying something nicer??

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jodee · 04/10/2004 15:41

Hi WK, what an interesting thread! I'm a Christian, but certainly don't have all the answers, I do think that some things are just part of God's mysterious plan. But just a few humble thoughts I had about why He created us if he knew the outcome of humanity, sin, etc.

You said "if he really loved us, wouldn't it be better to save us the heartache"? Well God went through the ultimate heartache, sending his only Son to die a horrible death on the cross for us. God must have known that was going to happen, and even as the event was occurring he could have stepped in at the last minute to save him.
but I think it is because God is Love that he created us, he couldn't be lonely as he is self-sufficient.

But what is the nature of Love? - to Give. John 3:16 is the perfect example of that. Also, a great act of love is self-sacrifice. So maybe (muddled thoughts here!) God went through the whole creation, the fall, sinful world bit just so He could show his greatest act of Love for humanity by laying down his life for us?

Very interested to read others' thoughts!

Ameriscot2004 · 04/10/2004 15:46

"1) If God is really so much of a 'higher power' why does he need to make company for himself?? Seems a bit weird thinking of an all-powerful God getting lonely!!!"

The Christian faith is all about relationships, and God is part of this. Yes, he could have done nothing, or created us then left us and gone onto another project, but that's not what it's all about.

"2) If God, being all-seeing, knew humans would end up 'going wrong' - why bother? If he really loved us, wouldn't it be better to save us the 'heartache'? "

Because there's so much more glory to come. The sin that entered the world and its consequences are are small compared to the riches, and God more than makes up for the suffering.

"3) When humans did 'go wrong' why did God decide to drown us all (the flood) BEFORE deciding he was loving enough to let us all have a chance at going to heaven? "

But we don't really know about the salvation of those who were around pre-flood. The Bible doesn't really tell us about them specifically (it's not that kind of book). We can only speculate that, given we believe God to be a just, merciful and loving God, that he will do the right thing by those people.

fruitful · 04/10/2004 15:50

Here's my shot at the answers -

  1. Humans are made in the image of God. We're like him. You know that "I want a baby" feeling? God had that too - so he made himself a few children. I suppose we don't know that he only made us on one planet. Maybe its just nice to have all your kids together.

  2. The only way to prevent us messing up is to make us like robots. What if you could flick a switch in your kids' heads, and suddenly they were incapable of being naughty or selfish? Nice for a while, but then wouldn't it be boring? There'd be no pleasure at all in having them bring you a present and say they loved you, if you knew they had to do it.

3)I don't know. Maybe he was having a bad day... The Bible says it was because people and the earth were corrupt - but God must have known we'd just do it again, and that he'd have to come down here personally and sort us all out. So I don't know why he didn't just do the Jesus bit first.

The more I read the Bible, the more I realise I don't understand. And the more I talk to God, the more I realise that he loves me, and so I don't care whether I have the answers. The only answer I really needed was "did Jesus actually die and come back to life?" and there is a shed-load of good evidence / argument to show that he did. Without that, Christianity is completely futile (thats a quote from the Bible by the way, 1 Cor 15 ).

Mostly, like you say, I ignore the questions about the weird bits of the Bible. There are other questions that seem so much more important - like, "God, is dh going to get another job?" and "God, how do I get dd to sleep at night?". I'm not meaning to belittle your questions or anything - just to explain why Christians like me, who do believe all of the Bible, often don't bother about the tricky theological questions. We'd rather be talking to God about the tricky life questions!

I've taken so long to write this that the discussion has probably moved off somewhere completely different by now...

Tommy · 04/10/2004 15:53

Don't really wnat to get drawn into all of this (!) but, on the free will point, it's a bit like you not wanting your child to go out on their own - you don't want to because you love them and don't want them to get hurt but you know you have to let them, otherwise you'll be limiting their freedom. The freewill humans are given is just like being let out on your own for the first time!

Ameriscot2004 · 04/10/2004 15:55

Agree 100%, Fruitful.

Answers to questions of history (that we don't have) do nothing for my faith.

I see the Old Testament as a love story between God and his people. They would stray from God, and he would do something or send someone to pull them back - over and over again. Finally, when enough was enough, he ended the hold that sin had on us once and for all through Jesus and the cross.

aloha · 04/10/2004 16:14

Why does God encourage child abuse? He told Abraham to sacrifice his son to him. Abraham nearly went through with it. That child would have been terrified - wetting himself, screaming for mercy from his own father. He would never have been the same. What kind of loving, merciful God is this?

aloha · 04/10/2004 16:16

I don't actually believe in God, but I do think the character of the OT God is a vile, angry, capricious and vengeful - and indeed, murderous, one. Cannot square this with the all-loving, merciful stuff.

muddaofsuburbia · 04/10/2004 16:18

Isaac was probably in his twenties when that happened.

He is the same father who allowed his own son to be executed in order to save the lives of billions of others.

But I think you're just stirring

Original poster
wobblyknicks · 04/10/2004 21:38

Thanks for all the replies - has turned into an interesting thread, which is always good!!!

I totally understand that any Christians will naturally be preoccupied with the more important things in life than these questions, was just wondering if anyone had personal 'answers' to them or not really.

Reading the replies I've realised that my major point in this is the exact nature of God - I've always been 'taught' by Christians I know that he's perfect, infallible etc - but I've had these sticking questions that 'prove' (in my mind) that he must be, to a tiny degree, slightly fallible himself.

And he's supposed to be all-knowing, so can see the future - so why did he have an angry moment and drown people when he knew he'd calm down later, decide the drowning was a bad idea, and sacrifice his own son??

Aloha - thanks for that, I hadn't remembered that point when I started the thread. It does seem really odd that one minute God is supposed to be all loving then the next he's an 'angry' God. And granted, Issac may have been in his twenties but so am I and I'd be wetting myself if one of my parents was about to kill me!!!

And about the giving of his son thing - if you were lonely and wanted to create something for company but could see far ahead and knew you'd have to sacrifice your own child for it, wouldn't you just stay lonely????

Things like this just don't make a lot of sense to me, and I suppose thats because I'm not Christian, and its also why I'm not Christian but whether there are 'answers' or it has to be taken on faith, or not, its good to discuss it.

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