What do/did you teach your child if you have doubts?

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Luckily DS is still too young (20m) to understand, but:

I was born and raised in a country with a strong Catholic culture. Learned my prayers very early, went to church every Sunday, did my Holy Communion, confirmation etc.

During the early teenage years religion gave me some comfort, but later on I detached myself. Got a degree and PhD in hard sciences and became very much the "I want to see first" type. DH followed exactly the same path.

But we got married in church, because somehow we feel guilty of this and thought it was the right thing to do.

I really would like to provide DS in his childhood with the same comfort I had, give him a positive explanation of negative events, death etc, but how can I get him to follow this path if we don't lead by example?

@FuzzyShadowChatter that's a very interesting suggestion. We don't have any particular tradition besides going to the cemetery on Nov 1st, but it's so hard for me. I can manage with people who'd died old enough to have sort of lived their life, but not those who died too soon, I just can't explain. After 28 years, I still feel ill when facing the little grave of my stillborn sister. She was fully innocent, I just can't figure out why she wasn't given a chance.

@EvaHarknessRose that's how I would describe myself, very tolerant and keen to look at all sides of a story. My parents are very opinionated (nothing to do with religion here) and I developed my attitude on my own because I didn't like that model. Hope DS will like mine.

If anything the Catholic church now tries to lead by example

I don't know if you meant that to be funny, but it's hilarious.

@Lifecraft no it was just my own reflection of what I have seen in my corner of North West England and I explained a bit more in my last post that i was thinking locally.

Still you got me thinking and I'm will read up more about the wider scandal. I still think there are bigger more fundamental doubts to have about religion and I'd rather deal with those, with some (growing) faith, than get too bogged down in the murky workings of a global institution over which I have no control.

Round here church life is part of school life and I'm continually impressed with the people (parents, parishioners, priests, charity workers) who put their time and effort into making it work and focusing on the needs of children, the elderly, the poor, the sick and the community. I'd love to be as selfless.

There is no incompatibility between science and faith for Catholics. A Catholic priest, Georges Lemaitre was a mathematician, astronomer and was a physics professor who came up with the Big Bang theory after he recognized that the universe was expanding.

Science and theology are asking different questions. Science is asking “how”? Theology is asking “why”?

I am a Catholic and my faith is not based on fear and guilt so I have not had that experience, more love, community and the willingness to serve and care for those around you.

I know a lot of people are angry with the church for various reason and will pick out pieces of history and events that support their point of view. However they also miss the fact that Catholics believe all truth comes from God and therefore should be searched for. Catholics have been big supporters of education and many of the oldest universities in Europe and North America are Catholic foundations. Our church history is 2,000 years old and in that history are numerous Catholics who have developed our knowledge in so many areas. Even today the Catholic Church educates more people worldwide than any other organization.

My husband is a neurologist who specializes is Traumatic Brian Injury and he is a devout Catholic. Except for his undergrad degree all his education has been at Catholic schools. His medical degree was from one of the best med schools in the country with a 3% entry rate and it’s Catholic.

My teens all go to Catholic school. My eldest two attend a Jesuit high school that is academically very challenging. There are a couple of young priests on the staff, one teaches math and the other theology and science. My number one reason when choosing the school though was the pastoral care and emotional support. The school has been incredible supporting my kids through a cancer diagnosis I had last summer. One of their best friends lost his mum to an aneurysm and the school have supported him throughout. They have a real understanding and love for teenagers and I have seen my eldest become a true leader because of all the encouragement and responsibilities she has received.

I have sometimes had people make statements to me about what “Catholics believe” that aren’t true. Such as a friend who asked me how we can believe that the earth is 6,000 old, she seemed surprised when I said but we don’t.

IdaBWells- there are a lot of assumptions in your post! Of course it’s possible to be a catholic and a scientist. But the official Catholic position on evolution is Intelligent Design, which is basically creationism for clever people. So while saying that Catholics believe that the world is 6000 years old is of course ridiculous, saying they believe in a form of creationism isn’t.
Yes, the Catholic Church has a long history of involvement in education, but it is impossible to ignore the problematic aspects of this- the massive elephant in the room that is child abuse for one. And the questionable teaching on sex, sexual morality and contraceptive use for another.

I know a lot of people are angry with the church for various reason and will pick out pieces of history and events that support their point of view. However they also miss the fact that Catholics believe all truth comes from God and therefore should be searched for. Catholics have been big supporters of education and many of the oldest universities in Europe and North America are Catholic foundations. Our church history is 2,000 years old and in that history are numerous Catholics who have developed our knowledge in so many areas. Even today the Catholic Church educates more people worldwide than any other organization.

I have an issue with the whole "look at all the good stuff we do" defence to widespread rape and abuse of children, and the ongoing institutional cover up and protection of child rapists, that goes right to the very top.

I liken it to Ian Huntley standing up in court and saying "all you want to talk about is the murder of those 2 girls, but I was a great school caretaker, never missed a day sick, always send flowers to my granny on her birthday and gave a home to a rescue cat".

NO ONE CARES. Doing good is supposedly your job. The church doesn't get to offset that against its dreadful crimes.

Yes I'm a scientist and don't struggle too much to reconcile creationism with my catholic background. The inconsistency is about the concept of faith in itself, which requires you to believe without proofs, while I'm asked to work according to the scientific method and to prove and explain every little detail of what I have done before I can make a claim (and an article can be published).

About the good and the bad things, I'm not that fussed either - Church people are people and fallible for this very reason. Even God should be, otherwise he wouldn't allow disgraces of this world to happen (whether he is won over by the devil, or giving us a chance to earn the heaven, or any other BS, never understood this honestly), including abuses.

It's the moral interference with personal choices I mainly don't accept. For example, it has been (scientifically ) proven that a foetus of a few weeks is just a bunch of cells, and while I wouldn't personally touch them (maybe - I also think that before judging someone we should walk in their shoes !) I would never dream of preventing someone else to do it.

I don’t think “letting them make their own mind up” is a good approach when there is so much straight-up indoctrination at school (not even faith schools).

I say “some people believe”, and state that I am an atheist because there is no evidence of supernatural beings, afterlife etc.

I point out the things the school/ some teachers do, eg present religion as fact, tell DC off who are not praying, to help DC identify it.

What do you mean by indoctrination at school in non-faith schools @Loopytiles ?

This is more or less what I experienced abroad (where there is indeed the legal possibility of getting an exemption from RE lessons and do alternative activities, which wouldn't be needed if taught in an objective way), but didn't expect it here.

I haven't attended UK schools so I'm here to gather as much information as I can about the system.

Primarily presentation of religion as fact and worship in assemblies. I haven’t withdrawn my DC from the latter because no other DC have been, as far as I know, and I think this would embarrass the DC.

Really? And is it a non faith school? Wow.

All state schools have a statutory requirement to have a daily act of collective “broadly Christian” worship. And in my experience, most schools, particularly primary schools, have a default “soft Christian” ethos.

Yes, it’s actually in UK schools regulations.

To be fair, some schools just bung “Amen” on the end of anything to meet the requirements. But the pout is tht the requirement is non negotiable and technically schools should be marked down by OFSTED if they don’t do it properly.

Lifecraft my post was in no way meant as a defence of torturing and abusing children, that wasn’t the question I was responding to which was more about doubts and why have my children in Catholic schools.

As you don’t say you are Catholic you may be unaware of the enormous rage the hierarchies around the world have be roiling with regarding all the abuse within the church. Parents and others within the church have been, and continue to demand change and in my own diocese I know those changes have been dramatic and at every level of ministry within the church in our state (USA). This process is continuing but a major independent investigation of our diocese showed that the changes are working in terms of eliminating abuse. In terms of numbers 3% of priests were abusers which is 3% too many.

My mother died when I was 13 and my brother 10. Both myself and my brother were attacked sexually by male family “friends” once they knew we were no longer protected (our father was mentally ill and neglected us). I was not Catholic at that time, these were just regular Brits of no faith. I am as determined as all the other parents to see change is enforced to protect children and all vulnerable people.

I am also not going to deny the good that I have experienced and the very many loving people who are part of the church.

In terms of numbers 3% of priests were abusers which is 3% too many.

And what percentage weren't abusers themselves, but covered up for abusers because protecting the reputation of the church was more important than protecting children from harm?

Then we'll know the true percentage of paedophiles and paedophile enablers.

All human beings are fallible and commit sins. That includes church staff. But to try and extrapolate from that to say that therefore God doesn’t exist or all religions are bad, is just illogical and somewhat stupid.

I do get tired of the arrogance of some atheists, who claim Christianity is a fairy tale, and that it’s a “fact” that there’s no God.
They cannot prove their assertions and their position is just as much one of faith and belief as any Christian.
I am a doctor, with a scientific training. I was a rabid atheist until my mid thirties, when I had a direct encounter with the presence of God, just as millions of believers worldwide have experienced. I have since been a Christian and church attender for 25 years, I pray regularly and support the charitable work of the church. My own church (Church of Scotland) is welcoming and inclusive, my own minister is female, and it is a huge force for good in the community.
The C of S runs old folks homes, outreach groups, support for vulnerable families, and does prison and hospital visiting. The children in the Sunday school are exposed to a culture of moral values, kindness and cooperation rather than competition, and our teenagers have raised money for earthquake relief and to support 3rd world farmers.
Perhaps atheists should withhold their criticism until they contribute to their communities to the same extent as the church.

Lifecraft I agree with you and this is what I was referencing in my previous post, there is no passivity by Catholic Church members on this issue.

The church is not just the hierarchy, I belong to a very large active parish in the USA, we are at least 50% female. Although our priests are male (and I am fine with that) our business manager, accountant and facilities manager are all women (there are also a number of other different roles filled by men and women). Gender relations are emotionally mature and intelligent. I was asked to be on the Evangelization committee and went to my first meeting this week. I would say it was split 50/50 male/female of various ages, a mature and intelligent group of people who all listened to each other and were very supportive. One of our priests was only ordained two years ago and I admire him for following his vocation, training and commiting to the priesthood during this whole time period (scandals worldwide have been unfolding since around 2000) because I can only imagine the comments he gets from people outside the church particularly.

We still evangelize because we still have lots of people every year who want to become Catholic. A friend of mine in Croydon, London runs her parish RCIA and has been preparing 15 people who will be entering the church at Easter. This number is fairly typical for her parish.

We are dealing with the absolute darkest of sins and crimes. We can’t hide from it or deny it. We all know these behaviors (including the denial and coverups) are heinous. We believe Jesus is with us and that our God was tortured, humiliated, murdered and basically treated like complete shit by humankind because that is what we are capable of. We also believe in resurrection and that we are not going to abandon Christ because of human sin.

@babdoc I do get tired of the arrogance of some atheists, who claim Christianity is a fairy tale, and that it’s a “fact” that there’s no God. They cannot prove their assertions and their position is just as much one of faith and belief as any Christian. I am a doctor, with a scientific training.

I find that hard to believe. If you were a doctor with scientific training, you wouldn't come out with such a poor, unscientific argument.

I could say I have fairies at the bottom of my garden, that are only visible to me. And that they talk to me. And you might believe I'm deluded.

The onus is on me to prove it, not on you to prove me wrong. My position that they exist and your position that they don't are both not matters of faith. My belief is based on faith, your disbelief is based on a lack of evidence, along with all the evidence about everything we know about the natural world and the nature of existence and life.

All beliefs and opinions are not equal. There are people out there who believe the Earth is only 6000 years old. They say all the evidence to the contrary has been placed there by god as a test of faith. If you believe the evidence, you've failed the test.

No one can prove them wrong. But that doesn't mean that my belief that the world is 4.7billion year old is a position of faith, and no more valid that their belief.

Humanists offer a good explanation of death and how to view it, it’s narrated by Stephen Fry and is child friendly.

@Lifecraft you are coming across as one of the atheists @Babdoc was referring to. Have you been given a glimpse into the great beyond? You know for a fact that there is no creator and no heaven? Some atheists I come across at least have the grace to admit their belief is a valid as any other.

Your analogy about fairies is useless. One person coming to a belief independently vs billions of people across millennia, yeah, thats exactly the same.

The arguments for and against the existence of God (& Jesus and resurrection) are a huge complex area. I'd no more get into a theology debate on mumsnet than I would start a SAHM vs WOHM bunfight. Thats because I respect the right of other people to believe different things from me, whilst also happy to share my own religious experiences and how this is helping me raise my children.

Childhood initiation into a faith serves as a placeholder for belief. Adult conception of faith is very different. Especially in our secular age. Spirituality has low value in our society but fortunately religious belief systems often come with a moral code that non believers can get behind.

Even if OP did decide to raise their child Catholic (or any other faith) there is so much more to it than that. Big heavy questions to be dealt with and an entire relationship with God to be explored. Opening the door and giving the opportunity could be beneficial. A hope (ha, a prayer) that that person could later develop a source of comfort, strength and guidance. There's not much downside to it unless your conception of faith based education in the UK is stuck in say 1950s Ireland. But its down to individual preferences. Childrearing is a broad church, pun intended, and most of mumsnet accept that there is more than one right way.

Your analogy about fairies is useless. One person coming to a belief independently vs billions of people across millennia, yeah, thats exactly the same.

The point about fairies was about the need for proof, and whose duty it is to provide it. "You can't prove there's no god" is useless. It's not my job, it's your job to prove there is.

Wearywithteens Well said.

It's not my job, it's your job to prove there is.

Belief does not require proof. Because it is belief. If it had proof it would be scientific fact. I can rightly talk about wild and varied beliefs without referring to any proof at all.