Why has God allowed religion to be so tribal?

[Jason118]

There is so much solid teachings in religious dogma and so many warm and kind people who practice. Why has it all come to this, or was it ever thus?

Anasnake-
The founders of modern science- such as Robert Boyle were theists. Boyle dedicated his life to Christianity and the discovery of gods laws in nature and was the founder of modern chemistry. Many early scientists were devout christians.
Religion inspired science by prompting scientists to think gods universe was knowable.
Many scientists are still theists, esp in areas like physics.
The idea that religion and science are opposed is simply wrong.
If you want to take a very literal view of genesis in a kind of young earth creationist sort of way and use it as a straw man be my guest- but it's getting a bit old.

So Genesis is a fable ?

You can't honestly say the teachings the Old Testament are carried out today by day to day Christians. At least not with much credibility.
Those that remain are cherry picked. Judaism continues to uphold some of the teachings because that's essentially their complete Bible, but Christians have thrown aside most of them.
You'll not find many Christians opposed to a bacon sandwich.

The interpretations of the bible throughout history have been progressively watered down, because they've found themselves increasingly out of favour with the rest of society, and yet still today, the Christian church can't fully accept homosexuality or female equality.
If Christians on the whole DID accept these things, the church would change, but the proof is in the pudding.

IF (and it's a big IF) Christianity believes homosexuality is wrong, then it should stand up and be counted for holding that view, and if it believes it's ok, it should accept it fully. But it does neither, because rather than listen to what God is telling it/them, it's clearly more concerned with public opinion.

Why doesn't it yet accept women with full equality? Because Paul's teachings suggest it shouldn't? It seems to me that the problem is that for centuries they've been adamant about certain interpretations, and now they don't want to backtrack on that. Quite a conundrum.

Anasnake

I think it has truth to it. Hugh Ross is an astrophysicist who describes what truth he believes is in it. I've posted a link to one of his videos.

Haven't read full thread, answering original question.

I would say because man made religion, not God. That's not to say God may not exist, but have you considered God's existence completely independent of the construct of religion?

Personally - I'm not religious and my ideas about the concept of God and the existence or lack of is ever developing.

The moment you believe in a God, you begin a religion.
A God without purpose or influence is effective not a God at all, just some theoretical entity.
If you do believe there's a purpose or influence, then it's natural to want to seek out God's purpose and influence - which is where prayer or communication with God comes in. Suddenly you have religion.

yes well Jewish people do follow the Old Testament and can hardly be said to be draconian because of it- they are hugely successful.
The Old Testament needs to be considered with its historical context. Some of it is outdated, but the underlying messages are still relevant.
as for the teachings of the church, as I've said , if you don't like it- don't go. I can't see why atheists feel they should be able to dictate what the church can teach when they have no interest in it what
So ever,

You have your reason for not believing and i have my reasons to believe

I mention several times I believe in God?

Much like the Apple or Samsung tribes of now

Again, I did not say Jews were draconian, I said the teachings are. But the most draconian are abandoned because society won't tolerate them.

Yet still, married women in Judaism frequently shave off their hair and wear wigs. This (to most of society) is pretty extreme. This practice is founded in the Bible, but Christianity has chosen not to adopt it.

The same with unclean meat.

So Judaism and Christianity are sharing the same Old Testament, but Judaism is keeping some of the old teachings, and Christianity is abandoning them.
All denominations cherry pick... and when society forces them to, they eventually 'reinterpret' teachings with a less dramatic interpretation.

But why after so many years are the main Abrahamic religions not being drawn closer - surely it must be better if over time there is just one way of going about things. It seems to me to be getting more diverse, more fractious, with new denominations appearing almost willy nilly. This leads me to suspect that it's all for the glory of man rather than the glory of god. Surely god must be getting pretty annoyed by now?

@Jason118 I wonder if it's like the sunken cost fallacy in a relationship.

After centuries of shouting out loud "no,we are right!", "you're going to hell", starting wars,crusades,inquisitions ..invading countries,forced conversions and "baptisms",rights(especially of women) denied and trampled, exorcised children,people burned at the stake and so on,protecting clergy at all costs,shun this lot and exile that one etc..to turn around and say "we're all good" would make it all pointless and trivial. Well it is anyways,but they're hardly going to admit it.

That's humanity for ya!

But also, as civilisation changes, and science evolves, we discover new things, and then have to try to go the Bible to seek an interpretation. This is a new interpretation and thus can cause a division of interpretations.

30 years ago, we couldn't clone an animal, now we can... how do we turn to the Bible to tell us if that's ok?
30 years ago, most Churches really didn't approve of homosexuality. Most of society didn't. But times have changed, and now churches are trying to seek new interpretations from the Bible (the motivations for that are very debatable, but it's happening).

So, as we evolve, our interpretations of the Bible evolve too, and that will always result in differences of opinion.

The same happens with other religions too, but in recent history, Christianity has been far more adaptive (some might argue less stringent), whereas Islam has been more rigid (just as predominantly Islamic nations have been less open to cultural change).

@TornFromTheInside I wonder if Christianity's tolerant trends are connected to the separation of church and state and also the increasing number of atheists. When the power has diminished and also the pool of new recruits ,can you really afford to be as intolerant and "exclusive" as you've always been?

"But why after so many years are the main Abrahamic religions not being drawn closer - surely it must be better if over time there is just one way of going about things"

Because they can never come together, the Jewish people don't believe Jesus was the messiah, Christians think the Jewish people missed the messiah and Islam believes Jesus didn't die on the cross and was not the son of god- as I've said theyre contradictory. A Christian denying the divinity of Jesus would no longer be Christian.

The teachings of the Old Testament are still relevant and have shaped Jewish culture to a large extent- focusing on the teachings- The Jewish people are undeniably very successful. So when people say the Old Testament and religion is nonsense perhaps they should think the impact it's had- basically a culture of self restraint, self discipline, hard work... leads to success.

Doing what you want, only pursuing pleasure, hedonism leads to self destruction.

In what way are 'the Jewish people' very successful?
Whilst stereotyped for their business acumen they've also been persecuted and oppressed. I can't see how they are particularly successful above and beyond members of other religions. Bit of a mixed bag like the rest I would say.

@rebelrogue, yes I believe the church is constantly forced to compromise its beliefs under the guise of reinterpreting God's teachings. But it is through gritted teeth which is why they now don't see homosexuality as a sin, but still don't want to marry them, and how women are equal, but not fit to lead.

So what was Jesus saving us from ?

Jesus was saving us from God. It was God who gave Adam and Eve the tree of knowledge. It was God who left Adam and Eve alone with the tree of knowledge, which he specifically pointed out to them. And as innocent children he was responsible for them when they ate the fruit from it.

SO Jesus is saving us from Gods sin.

Most historians believe Jesus existed as a historical figure.

Actually, there's still an awful lot of debate about that. But even a guy named jesus did exist, that doesn't make him devine.

There are the gospel accounts written within the lifetime of the disciples.

Even if they were, it doesn't make them true or accurate. Imagine someone discovering a tabloid article 2000 years from now. It might be full of absolute rubbish about real people we know to have existed.

There are accounts of Jesus in the talmund, and other Jewish writings. I.e. Talmund stated Jesus was a sorcerer and was leading the people astray as a reason for execution.

No amount of writing makes the story true. This isn't the evidence which you think it is.

The Jews themselves acknowledge Jesus existence but believe he was a false prophet- surely if they wanted to discredit Christian belief they would deny his existence.

This is an argument from ignorance. "I can't think of any reason the Jews would acknowledge Jesus' existence other than because he was real, therefore Christianity is true". Nope, sorry, that's a really bad argument.

The fact the apostles and early Christians were executed, in the most horrendous ways, for something that they made up is improbable to me.

Another argument from ignorance.

So you saying my belief is based on nothing- is incorrect.

Your belief is based on insufficient evidence. That's what 'faith' is.

Likewise I have reasons why I believe other religions are incorrect.

Which are probably largely the same reasons atheists and other followers of other religions think that Christianity is incorrect.

And anyone has the right to believe anything they choose without being called arrogant just because they don't think the same as everyone else.

You can believe what you like, but if you then assert those beliefs to other people in an arrogant manner, then of course anyone else has the right to call you arrogant. You don't have a mythical, protected status because you are a Christian.

It is quite possible for religious people to politely disagree on their beliefs without being "arrogant" or "intolerant"

Except often they are not. See also: History.

Simply saying something is true/untrue is not intolerance

Saying something is true without sufficient evidence and asserting that you know it to be true when you could not possible know such a thing is incredibly arrogant.

What I think is ignorant is saying that believers don't have the right to not accept other religions as equally valid- because this doesn't show respect for any religion and demonstrates a lack theoretical knowledge.

There are so many negatives in this sentence that I'm not sure I really understand what you're trying to say. But I don't believe that any religion deserves respect. Certainly not the privileged position that many major religions have enjoyed for centuries.

As I said my belief is not based on faith alone, but I have considered it and come to a conclusion.

As faith is belief without sufficient evidence and your belief is not based on faith alone, this suggests that you have sufficient evidence. Let's hear it. It should win you a Nobel Prize.

The founders of modern science- such as Robert Boyle were theists. Boyle dedicated his life to Christianity and the discovery of gods laws in nature and was the founder of modern chemistry.

Of course he was. Most people used to be theists.

Many early scientists were devout christians.

Of course they were. And also Muslims and Jews and other religions because most people used to be theists.

Religion inspired science by prompting scientists to think gods universe was knowable.

Of course, because most people used to be theists. But we've come a long way since then and we can now demonstrate how things work without the need for a god.

Many scientists are still theists, esp in areas like physics.

There are some. But it's hardly a majority.

The idea that religion and science are opposed is simply wrong.

They are opposed when one says one thing and the other says something else.

If you want to take a very literal view of genesis in a kind of young earth creationist sort of way and use it as a straw man be my guest- but it's getting a bit old.

So what do you believe Genesis is saying? How did the world come into being?

The Old Testament needs to be considered with its historical context.

Not if it's the word of God. It should be true and accurate, written in a language that God knew would prevail, without ambiguity or contradiction. Otherwise, its just another man made document to be taken with a pinch of salt like any other.

Some of it is outdated, but the underlying messages are still relevant.

Some of it is outdated?? How about the underlying message of Exodus 21. Please explain how it is ok to own other people as property.

I can't see why atheists feel they should be able to dictate what the church can teach when they have no interest in it

Because I care about humanity and I have to coexist with people who will believe stuff without sufficient evidence. This has an impact on how well I am able to reason with people and live comfortably side-by-side with them. Let me ask you, do you care what they teach people in terrorist camps? You shouldn't, because it's just some other religion with a different point of view, right?

The teachings of the Old Testament are still relevant and have shaped Jewish culture to a large extent- focusing on the teachings- The Jewish people are undeniably very successful. So when people say the Old Testament and religion is nonsense perhaps they should think the impact it's had- basically a culture of self restraint, self discipline, hard work... leads to success.

Why aren't you Jewish then?

And just because they are successful, doesn't make their holy book true. There are plenty of successful non-believers too and success is also incredibly subjective. I wouldn't consider myself a success if I had to work really hard all the time.

Doing what you want, only pursuing pleasure, hedonism leads to self destruction.

Is this what you think being an atheist is all about?

I think it has truth to it. Hugh Ross is an astrophysicist who describes what truth he believes is in it. I've posted a link to one of his videos.

Hugh Ross denies the fact of evolution.

Having a PHD in astrophysics does not make him the ultimate authority on the subject. His research begins with the premise of a god and then attempts to show how science demonstrates God. This isn't how science works. This guy is not a reliable source of useful information.

Wiseoldelf-

I'm sorry but historians on the whole do believe in historical Jesus so it is entirely revelant to faith.
Jesus existence is an important part of Christian belief.
You seem to say any written evidence is likely to be wrong- therefore no one can realistically believe any historical account of anything.
There is less evidence to support Alexander the Great than there is Jesus.
The rest of what I've gone through just saying "bad argument, ignorant, arrogant" is not a counter argument.
I expect it's because you know very little on the topic to say anything productive.

How is explaining my belief on a religious forum where people have actively chosen to ask questions- arrogance? Giving an answer to a question is now arrogant?

As a non believer do you just seek out religious opinion to be rude to people.

Roberts Boyle was a Christian who dedicated his life to god and understanding gods laws as part of that work- his work in chemistry was part of his belief. Faith inspired early scientists. There are very many theists in science still.

People like you make conversations about religion tiresome. You seem to just demonstrate hostility for no reason. If you don't like talking about religion please feel free to move to another section of the forum not about religion