Why has God allowed religion to be so tribal?

[Jason118]

There is so much solid teachings in religious dogma and so many warm and kind people who practice. Why has it all come to this, or was it ever thus?

No, it really doesn't. I'll agree to differ.

You gave one already, why do I need to also give one? Have you broken it down and applied it to my reasoning.

How have you demonstrated that you come here many times and experience many lives by using yourself? As I said before I don't come on here to demonstrate. I can't show you but you can demonstrate it to yourself.

What does that mean though. You realise you're just saying words? We're on a forum. What else can I use.

You'll only be satisfied with a mainstream scientific explanation. Which isn't going to happen but then you knew that from the start.

Have you broken it down and applied it to my reasoning.

Your reasoning is, "it makes sense to me". There's really not that much to decompose.

As I said before I don't come on here to demonstrate. I can't show you but you can demonstrate it to yourself.

Can you please explain the methodology I would use to demonstrate it to myself so that I can try it?

What does that mean though. You realise you're just saying words? We're on a forum. What else can I use.

OK, I'm sure you know what I meant, but I appreciate that my question was a little ambiguous. Your statement has absolutely no substance, it's a meaningless phrase. You seem to be completely incapable of explaining what you mean when you use arbitrary sentences which have probably been drilled into you from an early age by religious teaching and which you've been indoctrinated to just accept as having intrinsic meaning. But they don't.

You'll only be satisfied with a mainstream scientific explanation.

I'll be satisfied if you can explain how you would go about demonstrating that we have come back to this life multiple times. Not even asking you to actually demonstate it, just the method you would use to do so.

But as you've brought up science. The scientific method is the only reliable way that we have of getting towards the truth of things. Faith, as an example, is not a reliable method. Therefore, as someone who wants to believe as many true things and as few false things as possible, yes, scientific experiments, I believe, are the best way to do this.

WiseoldElf, I wouldn't bother if I were you. I have been round this particular buoy with Vitalogy over and over and over again on here and I've given up. She is incapable of rational thought and seems to take pleasure in making her statements more and more ambiguous as any discussion goes on.

I actually used to think she was a troll, but now I just think she is a not particularly intelligent spiritual deist who suffers from a serious case of the Dunnings-Kruger effect.

I'm reminded of a story.

A farmer asks the priest 'if I didn't know about God, would I still go to heaven?'
'Why, yes my son' the priest replies.
'So why did you tell me about him then?' the farmer asks.

I think the idea sounds nice in theory torn almost like the communism of religion, but it’s not realistic about human nature. If there’s no struggle What is the purpose of life then in Christianity? Where is the motivation to be better if everyone ends up the same? How do you stop people giving themselves the license to partake in antisocial behaviours if there is no redress in the afterlife for their victims? And how can the law act against that if God the Law Giver has already supposedly given them entrance to heaven no conditions?

Most Christians I know who call themselves Christian are only excessive in being very kind, very sentimental people. And I’m sure Christianity has various social conditioning mechanisms to make sure people don’t take on aberrant behaviour even when there’s a perpetual membership to heaven.

But certainly it’s very inclusive with those beliefs if you ignore the mental gymnastics of the Trinity. And people go to Christianity, as islam, because they’re escaping tribalism, not going toward tribalism. Inclining to order and structure I appreciate that in Judaism and Christianity also and how that creates cohesion and cooperation within.

Can you please explain the methodology I would use to demonstrate it to myself so that I can try it? Keep searching WiseOldElfIsNick Although that can be a hinderance.

You seem to be completely incapable of explaining what you mean Or maybe you just don't understand.

when you use arbitrary sentences which have probably been drilled into you from an early age by religious teaching and which you've been indoctrinated to just accept as having intrinsic meaning. But they don't. Religious teachings/indoctrination from an early age, you are so far off the mark with this statement. My family weren't religious. What religion do you think I'm following?

The scientific method is the only reliable way that we have of getting towards the truth of things. You've hit a dead end then because it's not possible to assess spiritual matters with mainstream science.

One last point. I know I'm flogging a dead horse here but have you looked into the Eastern philosophies?

The Christians want to please God and as such don't set out to sin - you'll get lapsed Christians who might end up doing some very bad things, and a few practising Christians who'll get mixed up in some sordid behaviour, but the majority will live fair 'do good' lives. However, 'do good' lives doesn't mean they don't have sinful thoughts, or that they don't ever do or say things they shouldn't - that's human nature, and as part of human nature, they sin.

What you're alluding to is a competitive nature of being a 'better' person than someone else. The struggle is to keep sin to a minimum and to save as many other people (make them Christians) as possible. Another struggle is to interpret what God wants from them i.e. his 'plan' for them. That's part of their praying ritual - to discover what God wants from them.

I'm not sure how you can say 'the theory of that sounds good, but it's not realistic about human nature' - as we're talking about a religion, which to my mind is entirely hypothetic in the first place.

Most lapsed Christians won't be telling you they are Christians, so you're only going to get a skewed view of the currently practising Christians who are willing to tell you that's what they are, and who are typically nice people doing good things.

Keep searching WiseOldElfIsNick Although that can be a hinderance.

Searching for what? Searching how? You literally offer no explanations for anything.

Or maybe you just don't understand.

Can you blame me when you say things like the above? I'd really love to know what I'm looking for.

Religious teachings/indoctrination from an early age, you are so far off the mark with this statement. My family weren't religious. What religion do you think I'm following?

It doesn't much matter which religion you're following, if any. When did you start believing things without sufficient evidence?

You've hit a dead end then because it's not possible to assess spiritual matters with mainstream science.

Then how do you come to rational conclusions about what is real?

One last point. I know I'm flogging a dead horse here but have you looked into the Eastern philosophies?

What is it I should be looking for? Is this the same stuff I'm looking inside myself for and using myself as a measure for? Please help me out here, I really want to know.

What is the purpose of life then in Christianity? Where is the motivation to be better if everyone ends up the same? How do you stop people giving themselves the license to partake in antisocial behaviours if there is no redress in the afterlife for their victims? And how can the law act against that if God the Law Giver has already supposedly given them entrance to heaven no conditions?

Are these things which Islam deals with better? Is it much easier to prevent people from engaging in antisocial behaviours and control their actions with the promise of an afterlife for good behaviour?

Most Christians I know who call themselves Christian are only excessive in being very kind, very sentimental people.

Personally, I find that the range of demonstrated behaviours from the very good to the very bad is roughly the same distribution as you find in any other religion and also in non-believers.

And I’m sure Christianity has various social conditioning mechanisms to make sure people don’t take on aberrant behaviour even when there’s a perpetual membership to heaven.

There are plenty of control measures in Christianity and in pretty much every organised religion. That's kind of the point of them. They just mostly make no sense unless you've been convinced to believe in stuff that cannot be demonstrated.

Certainly I don’t mean competitive religiosity when I talk of struggle. I mean struggling and striving against ones base animal self, what lifts us, makes us aim higher than just seeing to our own needs.

I think All political and religious theories are hypothetical surely, with different realities and different outcomes based on the starting positions and end goals. Only science is factual.

If it hasn’t been clear I have been talking more about big r religion: organised religion, rather than small r religion - personalised religion.

Humans organise themselves into tribes on way more than religion. doesn’t matter if it’s faith or politics if it’s dealing with how humans group and interact together. Capitalism and communism are different ways of arriving at organising society.

WiseOldElfIsNick If you want to find spirituality for want of a better word, keep reading, listening, searching and asking questions. If you don't then that's find too. It's your life, do as you please.

I think people with and without religion struggle with life to varying degrees and at different times in their life.
The meaning of life is a question posed by many, with or without a God.

Arguably, religion offers some form of meaning - the idea that life isn't some pointless transition between birth and death.

Some will argue that their children give their life a meaning, but I find this a weak argument, as they're merely continuing the pointless exercise of life, or indeed the entire universe's birth to death...

And yet, despite our cosmic meaningless existence - we might as well enjoy our transition in whatever way we can.

It might also be that the self describing Christians I know have gone out of their way to befriend a visible Muslim woman and so already Im seeing a selective group of really nice people. Might be they’re also trying to convert me!

Islam has its own challenges, We also rely on strong social conditioning as we don’t have a religious hierarchy - to enforce majority interpretations and practise. Maybe when islam gets to 2000 years old the current minority opinion that heaven is from faith alone will take precedence to heaven is from faith and works like the Christians believe.

If you want to find spirituality for want of a better word, keep reading, listening, searching and asking questions. If you don't then that's find too. It's your life, do as you please.

See this is exactly the struggle I'm having with you, you don't explain anything. What is this spirituality I'm looking for, what does it look like, what does it feel like, are these even sensible questions? What should I be reading, what should I be searching for, what questions should I be asking?.

Arguably, religion offers some form of meaning - the idea that life isn't some pointless transition between birth and death.

Is it so bad if that's all life is? I don't see any reason to think that there is a purpose to my existence.

Some will argue that their children give their life a meaning, but I find this a weak argument, as they're merely continuing the pointless exercise of life, or indeed the entire universe's birth to death

Again, does there really need to be a meaning?

And yet, despite our cosmic meaningless existence - we might as well enjoy our transition in whatever way we can.

Absolutely! :)

I think you need to go and have a lie down in a darkened room. Hopefully it'll calm you down.

Islam has its own challenges, We also rely on strong social conditioning as we don’t have a religious hierarchy - to enforce majority interpretations and practise.

I honestly don't think Christianity is any better off! There is no majority interpretation and practice, there are over a thousand denominations of Christianity which all differ on these grounds.

Maybe when islam gets to 2000 years old the current minority opinion that heaven is from faith alone will take precedence to heaven is from faith and works like the Christians believe.

I wouldn't hope for that. Age is not necessarily a strong attribute when it comes to human ideas, it just seems to give weight to things which don't deserve it simply by virtue of them being long established.

I don't know that everybody needs to have a meaning, but I'm sure many do. 'What is the meaning of life?' is a question posed by lots of people before us (and I expect will continue to be asked).

There's also a chance that 'meaning' doesn't have to be a lifelong question, it might be just a question someone raises only for a period of time in their lives, then goes back to not caring!

I think you need to go and have a lie down in a darkened room. Hopefully it'll calm you down.

Haha! So you can't even answer some very simple and fundamental questions about your own beliefs. Oh well.

I don't know that everybody needs to have a meaning, but I'm sure many do. 'What is the meaning of life?' is a question posed by lots of people before us (and I expect will continue to be asked).

True, but just because people ask the question, doesn't mean that there's an answer, nor does it mean that it's even a valid question. My life does not have any intrinsic meaning as far as I'm concerned. I'm here because life evolved on this little rock on the outer rims of an average galaxy. I'll go along having some fun and ultimately die and that's that. I just hope I go in some kind of blaze of glory!

And equally, just because someone doesn't care for meaning, doesn't mean they don't have one. We'll never know.
Maybe life has multiple meanings, depending on the observer.

Also, when someone asks 'what's the meaning of life' - do they mean their life, or life in general?

I've deduced that 42 is incorrect though.

Another struggle is to interpret what God wants from them i.e. his 'plan' for them. That's part of their praying ritual - to discover what God wants from them

Out of interest, why does god tell some Christians that being gay is bad, but then tell other Christians that it's okay? Why can't he tell everyone who prays to him the same?

I agree headinhands.

To me it must mean that one of the Christians is not hearing him properly rather that God giving opposing rules.

I can see an argument where some things in life require different guidance depending on the person but if an entire denomination nlet alone an individual can't hear the same message from God then what chance do they have with other issues?

Millions pray for things that don't happen and it's put down to God's will, but when a prayer happens to coincide with an eventuality, it's proof of prayer power.

Calling people to God’s word is a big reason for living but once they accept God’s word Islam gives direction for the purpose of life.

The Quran is very clear that God created this world for a purpose, not for His play or amusement. In three places in the Quran man is told that our role is as God’s stewards on earth, to take care of the trust that is the earth. That we shall be called to account for how we delivered that trust. In another place we are told Life and death were created to see which of us are best in deeds, that knowing we have an individual end point we all strive to achieve good.

Our worship and obedience to God’s will is for our benefit not His, so that we live in balance with what He has established. Many Muslims try to just maintain this - not able or in a position to take on the stewardship role but should try in whatever capacity to be mindful of the earth around us. The Quran warns us that when man sins the corruption spreads to the land and seas, and that life and vegetation are destroyed by their own hands. We believe the Quran is th manual for life, and it’s to our advantage, not God’s, that we remain faithful to it. And ultimately, at the end of time, we are judged for what went on in this life. It’s clear, easily referenced, easily understood.

What does the Quran teach about homosexuality, abortion, women and war?
I ask this because these issues become less clear in Christianity and I suspect in Islam too, but it would be nice for a Muslim to explain at least one Muslim view..