Christianity and children

[purpleangel17]

Interested to hear the approach other Christians take to sharing their faith with their children.

I tell the children what I believe but I don't present it as absolute truth, I tell them different people believe different things and they can make their own mind up when they are older.

Do you do the same or do you present it as truth and say others are 'misguided?

My elder questions a lot but is respectful. My younger has recently taken to asking lots of other people what their religion is! I think they both believe but they have questions which is normal.

I sometimes get into heated arguments with believers when I dare say that there is no such thing as a Christian (or Jewis, Muslim, or whatever) child. Religion, like political affiliation, is a complex choice that only an adult can and should make. How would you react if I told you that my toddler is a Lib-dem, a Conservative, Labour or whatever? Would you think it's normal or would you have me locked up in a mental institution?

@wiltingfast , interesting that you admit that, if you want your children to believe, you must effectively indoctrinate them. It means at least some believers accept that the reasons to believe are not as self-evident as some love to say!

@SadSongsAndWaltzes , how do you prove a negative?
What do you think about unicorns and fire-spitting dragons? I believe they do not exist. Show me one, and I'll change my mind. Until then, I find it perfectly reasonable to believe their existence is so unlikely that one can reasonably conclude they do no exist.

There is also a big difference between the existence of a generic deity (how do you prove it doesn't exist?), and the existence of the god of a specific religion. I cannot prove that no god exists, just like no one can prove unicorns don't exist (yet not many people older than 7 believe in unicorns); but it doesn't take much to prove that the evil and suffering in the world contradict the concept of a good god that loves all his sons - big time. And, no, free will doesn't explain everything.

It also doesn't take a PhD in anthropology to realise that ALL religions had the goal of explaining natural phenomena which were inexplicable at the time. Why does the sun rise and set? It was terrifying to admit ignorance; much more comforting to believe the story of the sun in a chariot, as in the Greek, and then Roman, mythology. Etc etc etc.

The problem with leaving decisions until someone is an adult is that maturity comes late. As young adults there will be the black and white thinking that I am right and that you are wrong. I teach; you indoctrinate. My tribe is the tribe that has it right and the other is beyond the pale. The other can be political or racial or religious or something else. There is a lot of the shadow in the other if you want to get psychological.

For those of us on the other side of a half century there sometimes comes a different way of believing that is accepting of mystery and doubt. Kindness, humility and realising that you don't know all the answers goes a long way. Studying metaphysics and working with the homeless/food bank/street pastors does the same thing.

We all try and raise our children the best way we can. They learn more about what we believe from what we do rather than what we say.

@SouthLondonDaddy Ah, but as I said in my post, I am not actually a believer SLD

I have to say, personally I resent this idea that seems to have gained traction among believers over the last few years, that atheism is another form of belief. There would be no need to describe it at all if it wasn't for the fact of all the believers and their need to categorize non-believers. Belief and non-belief are not equivalent.

I see no evidence of god. I've never had any sense of him. I don't go around teaching my children anything around this. To be honest, in my view it speaks for itself. Which is why, if you want your children to believe, you have to teach it, and indeed live it.

Atheist here. I always told my DC that I don't believe in God or religion, but that some people do and thats fine. They have friends of all faiths and have grown up (so far) to be pretty tolerant and relaxed about it all.

I do cringe at the way a close friend, who is a Christian, talks to her young child about God. She paints a picture of this all-mighty 'Him' who is everywhere and loves everyone, but also judges everyone. I find that a very strange way to raise a young child, especially a female one. But I bite my lip, of course...

Just as there are different types of Christian there are different styles of atheism. There isn't a default view. As soon as you get started on the nature of reality and truth and belief you get metaphysical and this is complex territory. The wiki article here gives so,e of the background en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism as does this archived bbc site www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/atheism/

We are a religious, church going family. We teach our children about our beliefs and they come to church with us and are involved in the churches youth group.
We encourage them to ask questions and search for their own answers.

There are different types of atheists - very true. This is why it makes no sense to generalise. The one and only thing atheists have in common is we don't believe in a god. Everything else varies wildly among atheists. You have militant atheists that want to "convert" others and atheists who couldn't care less; leftwing and right-wing atheists ; you even have atheists who have a fanatical, "religious" approach to their atheism.

Finding common traits among the believers in a given faith is, instead, more common as they share more than just a single belief - it's typically a set of values etc.

@thegreenheartofmanyroundabouts,
I don't understand your point about maturity coming late. So what? Should we decide for them because they might make the wrong decision? Should we also be voting for them for the same reason?

What seems to come through in threads like this is that people of faith should not expose their children to the faith practices of the parents until the children are old enough to make up their own minds. We live in a complex world and children will make decisions about all sorts of things in age appropriate ways.

We all have to bring up our children with a set of beliefs about how the world us functions, about how to act, about the nature of reality. We have to do that because children ask about it. Who am I? Who would I be if I wasn't me? What happens to the guinea pig when it dies? Where was I before I was in mummy's tummy? Why can't I do what I like? -- and many more. These are metaphysical questions, that is they're not like 'what is the earth made of' or 'how did mummy and daddy make me'. They can't be answered without drawing on our underlying philosophical and religious beliefs.

Atheists and Christians (for example) might well answer these questions in different ways. But atheists will still have to draw on a stock of underlying beliefs to answer them - perhaps they might say that the guinea pig goes to sleep and never wakes up, or that before you were conceived you didn't exist, or that if you were someone else you could never know what that was like, or that you can't do what you like because you have to do what is best for everybody. Or you might give other answers. Whatever you might say, they would be metaphysical statements, that is relating to non-materially based ideas. And atheists have those just as much as Christians or any other people of faith. That's why some people say (mistakenly) that atheism is a belief system. It's not, but that doesn't mean that atheists don't have beliefs about the nature of reality, or ethics, or life after death etc that underpin their atheism.

By the same token, because children do ask those questions, and because we need to answer them, we inevitably pass on our beliefs to our children. And we have to. We can't, for example, allow them to grow up without any ethical principles because they need to work them out for themselves when they grow up. Actually we have to teach them not to hurt other people, not to lie, not to grab what other people have, and so on, right now.

It's the same with our metaphysical beliefs. We do and must pass them on to our children, not least because children want to know about them now. And, of course, we bring our children up in the culture of our family. We teach them that they are unique and special by celebrating their birthday, for example, and we pass on all kinds of underlying attitudes by what we do both on special occasions and everyday. We can't bring them up as blank slates (and actually, what would a blank slate child be like? perhaps like one of those children who have never learned language and been brought up outside human society - those children are irreparably damaged).

So I have brought my children up answering their questions in terms of my own Christian faith, and I have taken them to church and prayed with them because those are important activities for my family. Of course, I'd love it if as adults they decided to make Christianity central to their lives - in my view the Christian faith adds depth and richness and beauty to our lives and allows us to live more fully. But I can only invite them to do this, I can't make them. I can't make them have faith because that is a matter for them. All I can do is to show them what having a faith is like and teach them about it. They will get exposure to other ways of living, and other beliefs in their lives - they know lots of atheists in our wider family, let alone in their friendship groups and wider society. And that's fine.

Actually as an atheist, as I don't have any belief Niminy, I say 'we don't actually know'. So I'm not passing any particular belief on about these things that we don't know.

On threads like this two different, but similar, meanings of the word 'belief' and 'believe' often get confused. One meaning of 'believe' is to 'hold an opinion' or 'think'. Another, closely related' but subtly different, is to 'accept that something is true, often without proof'. So everybody believes some things, whether atheist or not; they believe, for example, that the sun will rise tomorrow (or as popular theory has it, that the earth will fall), but that is an opinion based on evidence. Some people, usually those under the age of 10, believe in fairies or Father Christmas; that is the second type of belief.

I think the examples Niminy gives are mostly not really examples of belief at all.

When my preschool children asked about dead animals, I said something age appropriate about how their bodies had stopped working; I certainly wouldn't have said anything about going to sleep, as that would have been untrue. That's not a belief I hold - it's a fact.

If a child asks why they can't do what they like there is usually at least one immediate practical reason why not - because we don't have time, because it's very noisy and that upsets everyone else, because it's hurting the dog. Those aren't beliefs - they are usually facts.

Where they were before they were born is very straightforward; they didn't exist.

These are not beliefs.

@thegreenheartofmanyroundabouts, it depends on what you mean by exposure. It is neither feasible nor desirable to hide your beliefs from your children. And it is unavoidable that, if you feel very strongly about a cause (be it religion, politics or else), you will end up influencing your children somewhat. But there is a huge difference between somewhat influencing children because they know their parents think X, are part of a given group/association, etc., and have formal, structured indoctrination for your children, enrolling them in activities and groups/clubs etc which are supposed to signal the children’s adherence to a religion – which is something children cannot clearly decide for themselves.

Most (all?) religions have some kind of rite to signal that a child belongs to a given religion, and this typically takes place at birth and/or at a very young age. This is so nonsensical it’s beyond laughable. It’s like registering a child to a political party. I have had very heated arguments with Christians about the meaning of the Confirmation sacrament: it is often done at such a young age, that the poor children are in no position to “confirm” much. Sure, they’ll say the words, but it’s not the decision of a responsible and well-informed adult.

@Niminy, there is nothing wrong in answering a child’s questions explaining that different people hold different views, and that they’ll decide for themselves when they are grown ups. After all, this (different people holding different views) should be a very easy concept to relate to for most children, at least in a multicultural place like London, because it’s easy to see that there are different religions. For a child growing up in less diverse environments it might be different.

I also agree about the importance of distinguishing between believing in something without proof, and believe in the sense of holding an opinion.

We have 3 teenagers now. We've always taken them to church on a Sunday and when they were little we prayed with them at bedtime - now we let them do as they wish.

We didn't have them baptised as babies as we wanted them to make their own minds up about religion and not be forced into anything. Most recently (in the last 12 years) we've gone to Baptist churches so this makes sense. We did have them dedicated.

Dd1 is 17 almost 18. She was baptised (full immersion) in June 2016, having gone through the classes at our church. It was a special day and she goes to church every Sunday and youth bible study too.

Ds is 15 almost 16 and has just asked to go through baptism classes. He loves the debates we have in the teenage group at church and feels very much part of the church "family".

Dd2 is 14 today, a confirmed atheist. She comes along on the Sundays there is teen church but otherwise stays home and walks the dog. I'm not sure how much its just rebellion against the way we brought her up and how much is a genuine belief but no matter, we respect the way she has chosen. She's a fantastic kid.

Our faith is our faith. I couldn't have married someone who didn't share it. But our children's faith is their own, to accept and believe and reject and share. Thats not up to dh and me to prescribe!

I'm not sure how much its just rebellion against the way we brought her up

It’s interesting that you don’t share the same critical analysis skills of your children who have chosen the same beliefs as you i.e. ‘they just believe because they see me believe’.**

But atheists will still have to draw on a stock of underlying beliefs to answer them

Nope.* I can leave the question unanswered and say ‘we don’t know, what do you think?’ Or something. With regards to an afterlife with my older children I will say we don’t know but when we look at the issue of brain damage it looks like we are our brain and there’s no evidence of a spirit xyz.*

Weegiemum
We have 3 teenagers now. We've always taken them to church on a Sunday and when they were little we prayed with them at bedtime - now we let them do as they wish.
By which time it's too late, they've already been indoctrinated

I don't get it. Why do atheists have to jump all over any thread asking for Christian input? There are plenty of threads to discuss atheism v Christianity but that is not what I asked. I asked for views from other Christians. Yes it's a public forum and anyone can post but I don't understand the motivation unless it is just some desire to oppose religious belief wherever you see it. I don't post on threads asking for Muslim or Jewish views... it wouldn't be appropriate or useful.

You're right. I was off-topic. I apologise.

I was drawn in by a christian saying what they thought an atheist might think. They were wrong for me, so I said.

But other than that on a public forum I don’t feel anything is out of bounds so long as I am courteous.

What I won’t do is turn up at your front door

I didn't say it was out of bounds, I just said I didn't get it!

So just as I expect them to clean their teeth and flush the toilet and attend school, I expect them go to church.

Now that is truly creepy.

If I was talking with other atheists on a thread and a Christian posted to counter something I had said I’d like that. I’d welcome that.

I actually think the OP is right. We basically hijacked his thread and took it off-topic – that’s wrong.
There’s a difference between debating and going off-topic. If I were discussing about religion and atheism in general, I’d welcome input from all kinds of people; but if I asked a very specific question, e.g. : “how do other atheists do X?”, I wouldn’t want the discussion to go off-topic with religious people telling me their views about atheism.

PS The OP and I have a very similar approach in explaining our children what we believe, but without presenting it as an absolute truth.

SouthLondonDaddy I would like to think that an atheist could add something germane to the debate without veering off into a generic debate about religion and atheism.

For example, your MN nickname has reminded me of some research carried out in Switzerland on the factors which determine whether or not faith is passed on to the next generation. It was found that dads have a more important role to play than mums in this regard.

Here is an article commenting on the study.

From the article:

There is one critical factor. It is overwhelming, and it is this: It is the religious practice of the father of the family that, above all, determines the future attendance at or absence from church of the children.

The results do seem to be supported by other studies.

(And, interestingly, it works the other way round too. An atheist mum is unlikely to prevent her children becoming observant if dad is observant.)

I was quite startled by the findings as I think it is usually women who take the lead in religious education. It also seems terribly old-fashioned that there be such a difference between the sexes when it comes to influencing the next generation.

I suppose the response if you are female could either be to become more relaxed about the whole issue of passing on your faith (or indeed lack of it) to your children since you are unlikely to have the same degree of influence as your spouse/partner or you could attempt to make sure that your man is singing from the same hymn sheet, so to speak!

(I have no idea what might happen in the case of the children of same sex couples with different views on religion.)