Question about coverings in Islam

[Albadross]

Genuine question, not intended to goad or cause any offence!

How do children with additional needs - e.g. autism or anything else that makes communication a bit different - cope when their mothers/sisters etc. cover their faces?

If they're all out in a large group are there ever issues with a child getting lost? Would women who cover their faces consider not covering if it would help a child learn valuable communication skills?

I have autism and I find I need to focus on a nose or an eyebrow to appear to be making eye contact sometimes and I really struggle if people are wearing sunglasses or big hats. I also can't gauge reactions very well unless I can see a whole face clearly and it takes me a few meetings to even recognise someone, so it makes me wonder if there's been any research or if any MN Muslims can give some insight into whether this is an issue and what the advice usually is.

Thanks Out, I don't think there's any way to say that communication isn't impaired for those lip reading since there just isn't another way around it. I know you can use the eyes more, but for many people - especially children - learning to use the face and body to look for non-verbal signs is so important in understanding nuance and in knowing if someone is being genuine or not, which can be vital for vulnerable people. I'm not sure how it wouldn't just result in hearing impaired people being excluded and in turn excluded the person with their face covered because they know they just cannot communicate and that can't be a desirable outcome.

I don't for a second think there should be a ban and that's not really what I was getting at, I just feel maybe this isn't thought about enough and where I've seen it mentioned it's been dismissed and I want to understand why. It is about one group's rights vs another's and this has been an issue for me in the past where my needs as someone who struggles with verbal instruction vs a colleague who is blind and can only do verbal instruction - our working relationship just degraded because neither of us could work properly as quickly as was needed. That was about necessity rather than choice though obviously.

You only have to read the debate around accessible toilets to see how even amongst people who don't have religious requirements there's not a lot of awareness of the issues people with disabilities face unless they have direct experience themselves.

I hoped maybe there were people here who had experience in places where niqab is popular who might want to explore whether it would be seen as the right thing to do or not. Nobody can really answer this question Albadross because as I said it would depend on the individual and the circumstances they were in. I wore niqab when I lived in Saudi. Had I encountered someone who needed to lip read I would have removed it, but then I don't believe niqab is a religious obligation. Some women do. I can't speak for everyone that wears it, nobody can.

Not really answering the question, but some antedotal data for you.
I live in Saudi. Many of the ladies I meet wear a Niqab or Burka - for Saudis this is compulsory, for expats not.
At first glance, it looks like a sea of black. But you can tell people apart, and get quite good at it. I can pick out a number of people from a distance even if they are compleatly covered. I am no where near as good at this as local friends.
So I suspect people use different ques to identify people. There is no point making hair colour an identifier, but shape, gait (handbag...) are all methods I use. I'm sure people who have been here longer have more possibilities. And kids are pretty good at knowing who Mum is!

On the communication - the face would only be covered when in the presence of unrelated men - so guests or out in public. So communication at home isn't restricted. And again, I suspect different features are used.

I lived in Egypt and a few family friends wore niqab. None of them, however, were of the opinion that it is mandatory but only recommended, so I suspect that they would have removed it if it were causing significant problems for them or their family. As PP said, they would only wear it outside the home in the company of unrelated men.

It is true that most babies and young children hate seeing women in niqab though. Our niqab-wearing friend always took her face covering off when her grandchildren or other young kids were around because she said they would often burst into tears and be afraid of her when her face was covered.

I've wondered about lip reading too- I happen to have 2 friends who rely on it. I don't know anyone who covers their face to ask.

I can understand why there might be concerns about a teacher covering her face, particularly if she was teaching very young children, although I understand that it's OK to uncover in front of boy children. The school would have to make sure that no adult man ever entered the classroom without warning. Not sure about older boys with special needs, though..

The kindergarten school here has big "no men" warnings on the gates. And it's a front gate, reception area, and then another door to the classrooms. Kids are brought out of school for collection.
Older boys (over about 7) are normally taught by male teachers.

Ah ok that answers part of the question - thanks altered and RedSand. I guess it's tough if you're a man who needs to lip read though?

There's so much research on how babies recognise faces before anything else, it must have an effect when they leave the home, not being able to see mum's face. I really struggle to recognise even people I know very well sometimes when they're standing right in front of me so I wouldn't have a hope of picking someone out of a large group with everyone covered up. As a child I regularly zoned out and ended up following someone who wasn't my mum around thinking it was her because I was paying attention to something going on inside my head. I completely get that part of the purpose of it is to remove people's shallow judgements about us and give us the ability to show our character without all of that stuff but I do think it looks pretty terrifying and has the opposite effect when it prevents you making any sort of connection with someone with a disability.

Actually, I was involved in a vitamin D study whilst I was pregnant, they were looking at whether the mother's levels affected the foetus and they told me they were specifically looking at those who covered and were deficient as a result. I don't know how they would've made any recommendations based on that though because it really is a clash of religion vs health... the study isn't over yet so next time we see them I'll ask how they'd approach it.

Albadross most conservative Muslim women, especially ones who wear niqab, generally only speak to unrelated men when it's absolutely necessary.

I completely disagree that mothers wearing niqab affect their (neurotypical) babies. My DD was a baby when we lived in Saudi and she didn't behave differently with me when we were outside of the house, she was used to seeing me and others in niqab and she didn't need to see my face to know I'm her Mum, I've never seen or heard of this being a problem with any of my friends children either. I guess the exception would be if a woman and her baby spent an inordinate amount of time outside of their home.
I also don't think I've seen a child being unable to pick their Mum out from a group, as RedSandYellowSand said, you get used to everyone being dressed similarly and use other cues to recognise people.
I understand that for children who are not used to it they could find it scary but I think adults who find it scary are being daft to be honest..surely everyone knows that a women in niqab is a just a woman in niqab- even if they do call it a burka

I also don't think it's accurate to say niqab prevents women from connecting with disabled people, there are many different kinds of disability, most people do not need to be able to see someone's whole face in order to converse with them, even if they would prefer it. Women who wear niqab in western countries often face a huge amount of criticism and discrimination, I think it would be really unfair to accuse them of the same when the situations you are talking about would be so rare. Suely men with beards are a more common problem, especially as they are so fashionable these days? I've never heard anyone suggest that a man with a beard might have a negative effect on his child's development.

You're right that vitamin D deficiency can be a problem for niqab and hijab wearers in the UK. This is pretty well known, my own GP actually raised the issue with me a few years ago. As with non Muslims, it can be addressed with diet, supplements and even sunbeds if necessary, we do not need to change how we dress. I don't see it as religion vs health at all, it's estimated that up to 1 in 5 people in Britain have low levels of vitamin D, it's a problem for many people from all different backgrounds.

Stateless I meant people whose disability affects communication, like I said there are millions just with hearing impairments (more in countries with less good medical provision) and this is rising as we live longer and as babies survive life-threatening conditions more.

Maybe it's just that people with disabilities are used to having to deal with being excluded and that's why it seems rare. Most don't ever say they're struggling. And I'm not suggesting women in niqab are knowingly doing this at all, of course they know what exclusion is about but I think that's the most interesting part.

You might think it's daft to be scared of a person you can't read but for many adults with autism it's not a choice, unfortunately. Our anxiety comes from many places but this is one of those we don't feel able to challenge. We're not able to take cues as you would, so just because you don't know anyone that's not able to recognise people when they're covered doesn't mean we're not there. We can never really know if NT babies are affected, there'd have to be research to find out. We do know that parents treat babies differently according to sex right from birth and that this has an effect on them for life so it's feasible this could too.

I know people who do avoid talking to men with big beards because it's too hard to understand them. Same with any other face coverings and I include all of them in this - most of those are not an issue to remove though. In hospitals where masks are vital for hygiene surgical staff are beginning to wear transparent ones so they're able to be understood by deaf patients better.

I can't think of any solution for niqab though, it's a really difficult one.

I guess that's the point I'm trying to make Albadross- Why do you need to think of a solution for niqab? If someone encounters a woman in niqab and needs to lip read can't they together come up with an appropriate solution at the time, thats works in that particular situation? What kind of other solutions could there be, new laws, or perhaps a ban?

You said there are millions of people in Britain who lip read. But are there millions of women wearing niqab? No. There are about 1.4 million Muslim women in the UK. Nobody knows exactly how many wear niqab. For comparison though, in France there are about 3.5 million Muslim women. It was estimated before the niqab ban that there were only about 2000 wearers and some experts believe that estimate was too high. Niqab wearers in the UK form only a small minority of Muslim woman. I feel like you are looking for a solution to a problem that doesn't really exist.

When I said I think it's daft for adults to be scared I was talking about neurotypical people. I do understand that for some people who are not neurotypical it could be unnerving, I imagine other unusual types of dress could be too. But again, what's the solution? Should one tiny minority group change something extremely important to them on the off chance that they encounter people from a larger minority group? Is that logical or fair? I'm sure to a lot of people it would be but for me personally I think it's unacceptable.