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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

Questions on the bible

128 replies

ACubed · 21/01/2017 11:53

Hello all, back again as have had some thoughts on my mind lately , would love any thoughts on this.

If God is omnipotent why would he need to ask people things (Adam for example) or test people's faith?

If he does love us, again why test the faith?

This leads on to: if the bible is the true word of God, why would he go out of his way to get things wrong - for example saying that there are two lights on the sky which go around the earth. Surely god could have told us the earth goes round the sun. It's like he's going out of his way to convince people the things written are not true.

Does anyone's know Of any creation stories which say the earth is round and orbits the sun?

OP posts:
BertrandRussell · 26/01/2017 11:15

I'm sorry, Fresh, I didn't realize it was a typo. But even so, a lot of people interpret it the way I do - google is your friend here.

How do you know your interpretation is the right one?

whatsthecomingoverthehill · 26/01/2017 11:32

Nope Fresh, your claims to having the One True Faith are just arrogance.

FreshStartIn2017 · 26/01/2017 12:06

But even so, a lot of people interpret it the way I do - google is your friend here.

Can you link your google searches? I'm not sure which search words you're using.

FreshStartIn2017 · 26/01/2017 12:06

Nope Fresh, your claims to having the One True Faith are just arrogance.

No more arrogant than saying it's definitely not!

BertrandRussell · 26/01/2017 12:09

How about I do your googling for you if you tell us what church you belong to........

CardinalSin · 26/01/2017 12:10

Fresh also 'conveniently' forgets that timeline of when much of the New Testament was written. It's easy to make prophesies about events that have already happened...

ACubed · 26/01/2017 12:29

Fresh, thanks for the long answers. But still nothing could explain why god would exist. Do you see what I mean? You can always take a step further back and also Why?, like a four year old. Why is God here? Why did he create such a large universe and only populate such a small region?
I find thinking there's no reason for anything, and that we're just a happy acident much more interesting and amazing.

OP posts:
ErrolTheDragon · 26/01/2017 12:47

The slight differences in versions are the difference between saying "my house is on top of the hill" and saying "at the top of a hill you will find the home I live in" - it means the same even though the words are rearranged slightly.

Not all of them. For instance, the so-called 'johannine comma' en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma_Johanneum , which the evidence suggests is an addition only found in some versions, is the main biblical support for Trinitarianism, which is one of the keystones of what most would call mainstream christian belief. This dogma took centuries to develop and be generally agreed upon.

whatsthecomingoverthehill · 26/01/2017 13:02

No more arrogant than saying it's definitely not!

I haven't said it definitely isn't. I've said other Christians believe differently Confused

Fink · 26/01/2017 13:03

mostly they believe baby baptism saves, that good works earn you a place in heaven, that penance is necessary for salvation, that Mary is to be prayed to, and so on. Surely you don't deny all of this?

Infant baptism - yes, although in itself it won't save if the person later decides to reject God. I think you will find that there are plenty of examples from the Bible to both support and oppose infant baptism. If I were a sola scriptura Christian, I would have a major problem trying to reconcile an opposition to infant baptism with some Bible texts which clearly encourage it. But I might suggest that the sola scriptura position (on which I freely admit I am not an expert) seems to have a fixed idea on such issues and then argue from the Bible verses which agree with that and discount the ones which don't. Personally I don't believe that good theology comes from picking individual verses instead of looking at the big picture in Scripture.

'Good works earn you a place in heaven' - No, this is not Catholic teaching. Catholics teach that the grace of forgiveness and justification comes from God alone and can never be merited. Where we differ from some other churches is that we then believe that, after receiving the free gift of justification, our good works, which are in themselves the work of God in us, can help us to merit an increase in holiness. This is always a conditional merit based on co-operation with the saving work of Jesus, who alone has the power to save. Catholics do not teach that you can 'earn' heaven.

'Penance is necessary for salvation' - only if someone has definitively, absolutely rejected the grace of their baptism and decided against God (called mortal sin). Then, yes, a remedy is needed to restore them to God since baptism cannot be repeated. In other cases it is helpful in living a Christian life, not 'necessary for salvation' as such, which is not a term most Catholics would use on a day to day basis anyway since the tendency is more to concentrate on living life to the fullest to make the most of the grace Christ offers us to unite ourselves to him now and grow gradually more conformed to him in love rather than to scrape by on the bare minimum of what is 'necessary'.

'Mary is to be prayed to' - Not prayed to but prayed through in the same way that we ask our friends to pray for us. We ask Mary and the saints to intercede for us with God, not to somehow answer our prayers by their own power, which clearly they could not do.

I'm not expecting you (or anyone else) to accept the Catholic teaching on these issues. Just out of the Week of Prayer for Christian Unity Grin, I am happy to think that there are fellow Christian sisters (and possibly brothers) around me who desire to be united with the blessed Trinity in love and disagree with me about some of the details of how this is worked out. What I think you should reconsider is the idea that there is only one potential understanding of all of these issues, and more, in order to be considered Christian. I would think, given the history of the Church, any Christian should be wary of a claim to an absolute and definitive understanding of an infinite and mysterious Truth.

Fink · 26/01/2017 13:13

OP, have you ever studied philosophy? The argument for why God needs to exist at all is more of a metaphysical one than a properly theological one, i.e. the Bible takes as a basic assumption that God exists, there is little/no attempt by any of the Scriptural authors to try to prove what they take as a given.

You could try to read Aquinas's Five Ways, article three here. Bear in mind that the five ways are meant to be five modes to arrive at the one end, not five independent arguments. If you find that too impenetrable, there is a summary on WIkipedia. I don't know if it will help. It is an immensely useful tool for reflection for me, but it does heavily depend on Aristotelian concepts and I don't know how much it comes across to someone who has no background in that. Feel free to ask if there are terms you don't understand!

niminypiminy · 26/01/2017 13:19

Fink absolutely with you in your sentiments about Christian unity (although there's nothing in your post that I, as an Anglican, disagree with).

OP Rupert Shortt's recent book God is No Thing gives a really excellent and very clear, non-technical summary of Aquinas's Five Ways.

Fink · 26/01/2017 13:21

In terms of your actual question I think it's impossible to say if I would still be a Christian if I'd be born something else, because then I would be a very different I! But if I could imagine that in some kind of weird permutation of chance there were some kind of doppelgänger me who was exactly like Fink in every way but a different religion, then yes I think I might well still have ended up Christian. I say that because there have been two moments in my life when I considered converting to something else (once a different religion and once a different branch of Christianity), and both times I felt very strongly that that was the wrong decision and that I was very definitely called to remain where I was, and both of them resulted in a strengthening of my faith and commitment to the Church I was/am in.

Madhairday · 26/01/2017 16:22

The question about why God exists and if so why God populated such a tiny, insignificant part of the universe is really interesting, and, as Fink said, more metaphysical than theological or scientific. It's impossible to try and answer the first, I think, I would end up tying myself in knots. I'd come down to God is here because God. Which yeah, I recognise doesn't answer anything, but is similar to God's own statement about Godself in the bible: I am who I am.

God's creation of the universe and of us is partly answered in Christian doctrine; Christians believe God made humanity to be in relationship with God, made us free persons with the ability to choose and to reason. I guess for me it's something like why I chose to have dc: I wanted to have children to love them, to support them, to encourage them to be who they want to be, to grow and to thrive and to find satisfaction, to love and to be loved. Because my love for them is unconditional apart from when dd leaves plates growing stange life forms in her room I want to see them happy and fulfilled however they respond to me as their mother. If they reject me, it doesn't stop me loving them.

I think God created us because God is love, has an infinite amount of love to give, and because God is creative in God's very essence. When I look at the wonder of our world, the natural processes in motion, I see God's handiwork and God's passion for all to love God.

Fresh, please do be careful about claiming to be 'the bible believing Christian' in opposition to others you may see as liberal or unsound or whatever else. We all come with different backgrounds, education, mindsets, emotions, ways of viewing the world. We as Christians are agreed on the central tenets (the creed,) just because we may be opposed on other matters such as how literally to take the bible does not mean we are not bible believing. For me, I believe the bible is the inspired word of God but that God did not dictate it. I believe there are incredible depths to be found in God's word and that it means freedom and salvation, but that doesn't mean I must believe in 6 day creation 6,000 years ago. Please - let's be kind to one another.
Lovely to hear how you came to faith, though :-)

ACubed · 26/01/2017 20:14

I've studied a bit of philosophy yes but very rusty. I enjoyed playing with - I think it was Augustine but can't remember at all - who claimed to prove god exists based on the definition 'that than which no greater can be conceived ' or something along those lines. Apologies for not fact checking, on my phone and it's tricky.
I suppose another question would be why bother with having us evolve from single cell organisms at all? At what point did people evolve souls? Is heaven full of cave people?

OP posts:
Fink · 26/01/2017 20:31

That idea is from Anselm, it's called the ontological argument (although there are other developments of that basic idea which are also called that) and it's one of the major things Aquinas disagrees with in the tradition that came before him. He doesn't name Anselm, out of respect, but he pretty much destroys that argument. Other people still go for it, and if it helps them then fine. I find it pretty weak. It is fun to think things through and actually engage the brain though, and think about why they might be right or wrong.

I was going to get into the amoeba cave people thing and then I saw the time and realised I'd been procrastinating so long I really have to get back to work. I'm sure someone will be along soon with some thoughts, or I'll be back later.

boolifooli · 28/01/2017 10:00

some are offended by the idea of God being our judge. They think they've never done wrong and are close enough to being perfect.

I'm not perfect. I've messed up a load of times.

What I find ridiculous is the idea that a deity who drowns babies should be seen as morally superior to me. It's like telling me Hitler disproves of computer games.

boolifooli · 28/01/2017 10:05

They just rationalise and come to the conclusion that they will trust in mankind (often themselves) whereas a Christian rationalises and comes to the conclusion that they will trust in God.

Christians say this but their lives betray them. There's no difference between me and a Christian in our daily lives.

Can any Christian here tell me about a way they are behaving differently to me because of their trust in God?

boolifooli · 28/01/2017 10:15

Is he able, but not willing, or not willing to over-rule the free will of a created being?

There are countless incidents of god overriding free will in the bible so we can discount the above 'get out clause'.

boolifooli · 28/01/2017 10:17

Is God willing to prevent evil, or not able, or abiding by his own gift of free will?

Does God have free will? Could he chose to be evil?

boolifooli · 28/01/2017 10:19

he said that only foolish people try to interpret it literally

Jesus is foolish then? He took it literally.

boolifooli · 28/01/2017 10:27

Not only do the vast majority of Christians now read Genesis 1-2 allegorically, they have always done so.

A poll in '14 showed that 42% of Americans believe in a literal reading of Genesis. That's 42% of the general population and not specifically just Christians.

boolifooli · 28/01/2017 10:31

83% of Americans call themselves Christian so you can hardly call Christians who believe in creation an oddity!

How much do you know about the 'no true Scotsman' fallacy?

boolifooli · 28/01/2017 10:41

Part of this may be to jog along with whatever is the popular teaching of the day, to fit in with society's norms

Societies norms are established through reasoning. What norms within society do you think are wrong?

boolifooli · 28/01/2017 10:43

Many people I know, don't want to study out the Bible (too much hard work) and so they shrug their shoulders and just accept which ever voice is the loudest around them,

But there's no consensus amongst those who study for years. You all come to different conclusions.

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