Christian wiccian

[Mosseywossey]

Sorry in advance I am typing in my phone.
I have always been drawn to wiccian/pagan and Druid belief and rituals, however I am quite a strong believer in God and Christian.
I am thinking about mixing the two together.
Prayers are like spells when we come down to basics, they are also another form of worship to God, aren't they? I would be worshiping God and as God is in all things, eg natural, it does support some of the Wiccan belief system.
So in essence I would be merging aspect of both faiths. I know some people think they are polar oppersites but I actual think they have big similaries, (which I won't go into as I don't want to turn this into a full brown religious debate, but feel free to pm if you want to discuss it)
Am I just being silly? Or this is possible? And are their people out their who identify as Christian pagan, wiccian or Druid ? Or interested in it. Please be kind

Perhaps I should have said, 'from a 'more secularist viewpoint/perspective' to be more accurate. I know many secularists / atheists have a problem concerning acknowledging they have any particular 'belief' or 'belief system' preferring to base their world view on 'proven fact'. I'm sure people can get the gist of the point I was making, though, user.

I would be actually surprised though, you'd fall into the category of not acknowledging a belief or belief system, user, as you bother to practise witchcraft. Why do it, if you don't believe it does any good? The efficacy of witchcraft certainly has not been proven as fact...

rockpebblestone - yes, I'm aware that many Christians don't truly or fully accept core dogma. But I've always wondered why they bother to call themselves christian. Who for you was Christ? Just another spiritual teacher - or the son of god? Surely a Christian believes the latter - and all that that implies?

By the way, not all neo-pagans and not all wiccans practice witchcraft. They're not the same thing at all!

Mysteries

I am Christian, I believe Christ is the son of God. However, I think your comments regarding 'core dogma* are somewhat misleading, in that some of the aspects of the Christian Faith you remarked upon as 'core dogma' are understood differently within even mainstream denominations. When I linked to the debate on the Ship Of Fools website, many of the participants are members of well established, pretty mainstream churches.

I don't think I suggested all neo-Pagans or Wiccans practised witchcraft, did I? I didn't mean to.

But the Nicene Creed, is usually referred to, when establishing whether someones's core beliefs are harmonious with Christian ones:

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed

I do believe that Christianity and Paganism may have crossed paths at some point in early civilisation and maybe even part of the same foundation. However, that is merely my own opinion.
Does anyone else have similar feelings toward Paganism and Christianity? Or a follower of any form of Paganism? as i would like to know more about it from a person with first-hand experience.

I'm afraid my views on Christianity are pretty negative.For lots of reasons.

Mostly because I don't do boss god. I'm not into being judged, directed or created by anyone.
Christianity hasn't a good press when it comes to their dealings with women.

I personally would say that the Nicene Creed is not compatible with neo-paganism or Wicca.

Sorry if I misunderstood, but I did read you as suggesting that the practice of witchcraft was central to neo-paganism/wicca.

user - I'm with you. The Abrahamic religions (Christianity, Judaism, Islam) are firmly rooted in patriarchy. They didn't create it, but they are significantly responsible for making it the social standard in Western culture. And whatever your current beliefs, these religions are rooted in oppressive attitudes. As a man I find them toxic. I cannot understand how any woman would side with them. Seems to me akin to a Jew joining a neo-Nazi party

Mysteries

As a side note, how do you establish the original Pagan beliefs and practices, which the Neo-Pagan ones are supposed to be reconstructed from, were any less Paternalistic? As far as I know, the 'maternalistic' organisation of Pagan societies has largely been disputed as a myth/Neo-Pagan fantasy or at least unable to be proven beyond doubt by historians.

I totally agree with you on that Paganism is a lot more female friendly! Which is one of the reasons I want to reconstruct my worship? Depending on where in the bible and other holy texts like the Quran you look you will find alternative points of view on women. This is one of the reasons I feel like the bible has been corrupted by patriarchal, some scholar believes that some of the bibles were doctored by the church in the early century.

There are a lot of book on the subjects of Neo-Paganism.
My favourite book is called The Modern Myth, A lie that has condemned the modern society. I can't remember the author but i thick she was a scholar on the Vikings belief system, but it states that paganism was once a product of what we call Christianity. Like all religions, they branch off of each other. It gives the various example of this which are quite convincing. Then it goes on to describe what we actually know about Paganism and what is real and the various branches that it flows into such as Druid and Wiccans and the way they worship.

The think we establish beliefs and practices based on what we know from the origin roots and then we create our own way based on what we know. i found a lot of them are created from books of worshipers and their beliefs

Why do you think Christian festival happen to coincide so nicely with the season and the Pagan festivals? It's quite obvious that they copied from them to absorb other beliefs as they did with so many other systems (Yule, various Spring, midsummer etc. festivals). And then they claim to be the "original" faith.

How anyone believes this shit is beyond me...

rock - there is plenty archeological evidence to suggest that women were revered in late Neolothic society. Many of the religious artifacts depict female creatures as powerful, fecund, abundant, fertile, Often brandishing weapons, produce, snakes. etc. Often these depictions are explicit.

There is an agreement amongst scholars that the period before Abrahamic religion was nor patriarchial in many cultures.

I doubt these artifacts depicting powerful female images would be produced in a patriarchy. Patriarchial religions like christianity seek to repress women in order to hold power.

Can I just gently remind you that Wicca and neo paganism aren't ancient belief systems- they were created in the 20th century.

But if Doreen Valiente and others like her can create a new belief system, there is no reason why you can't too. Combine what you like of Christianity and Wicca - if it gives you spiritual comfort and an anchor for life and harms no one then how can that be anything but positive?

But paganism has clearly existed in some form in most cultures for a very long time, even the bible get shot under the collar about "heathen" practices.
While detailed evidence is scant, we have enough clues to piece together some ideas about ancient practices.
Pantheistic, season based, we do have a lot of information from Ancient Roman and Greek religions, Norse and Celtic legends for instance to help us piece together some picture.

Yes, of course people have always worshipped things.

But they haven't always been Wiccan- they have only been that since it was invented by someone called Gerald something in 1950. Not that it's not a perfectly valid thing to be, obviously if that's the sort of thing you want to be.

And as anyone who has come across me on the subject before will testify, I hold no brief for Christianity. But from all accounts, people were often much better off becoming Christians than following the earlier religions.........

I don't think any wiccans doubt that.
Other wiccans I have met draw their insirations from many sources.

But as you say it doesn't make it any less valid
For me lighting a candle and bringing in some apples and corm at harvest time is a comforting symbol. All the generations and thousands of years before me would have witnessed this point in the seasons, a snapshot in the year. In our busy lives and concrete surroundings it's easy to forget what's important, where we came from, it helps me make sense of things.

And as a culture whether we are religious /pagan or have no interest in spirituality we still mark these year events. Our traditions are still important, and although their functions and meanings have been lost for many they somehow give us all comfort.

You're lucky in the people you know, then. The Wiccans I know are always going on about their ancient rituals and the traditions stretching back to prehistory. About how the things they do are "older than Christianity". They get a bit cross sometimes when I remind them of Gerald and Doreen in the 1940s..........

But witchcraft as a concept was certainly embraced well before that. Thousands of women were burnt at the stake in the 1600s, and the bible mentions witchcraft.
In any case does it matter?

As I sit in my favourite goddess temple which was built five and a half thousand years ago and watch the sun set as my ancestors did- it works for me.

I think people often use Pagan and Wiccan as interchangeable terms, when they are really not. Paganism clearly does go back millennia in many forms. Wicca was invented by Gerald Gardiner in the 1930-50's as an initiatory religion.

Most initiatory Wiccans are fully aware of the their origins and history. A lot of solitary practitioners will also describe themselves as wiccan - some initiatory wiccans aren't too happy about that, though i think each to their own. Solitary practitioners might not always be so aware of the history of Wicca and the surprisingly recent origin of some festivals as the myth regarding it being an ancient religion is perpetuated in a lot of the literature.

There are many traditions of and influences on neo-paganism, some more historically authentic than others. Because Gardiner drew on a lot of earlier cultures Wicca is imbued with an air of ancient authenticity, which enabled other aspects to be added that don't share that lineage.There is good evidence for Goddess worship in prehistory for example, but other elements like the law of three can be traced back directly to Gardiner (in a fictional book).

So, yes Wicca is a recent invention but paganism and witchcraft certainly are not. Most pagans are seeking a connection with that same essence that their ancestors revered - that's often the purpose of ritual, and why so many are drawn to ancient places. It doesn't actually matter that much whether the rituals themselves are authentically prehistoric (in some cases we may be glad that they aren't) - it's whether they get you to the same place in terms of connectness.

I think that seems to be much what is being asked here. Would it be right to say that there doesn't seem much doubt that your beliefs are Christian, but the rituals aren't working for you, and you are drawn to the spiritual connection with the natural world, which is where the appeal of paganism comes in? I see no problem in expressing your Christian beliefs in a more 'pagan' way, but the beliefs themselves are clearly at odds. I used to be Roman Catholic and would secretly identified Mary with the Goddess - i finally worked out i probably wasn't a Catholic!

Velvet Green- Yeah that is exactly right just have to find the right balance and knowledge. I can totally see Mary as a Goddess and think it would really make sense.

Apologies for all the typos in that post!

I didn't know it at the time, but i was a long way from being the first person to wonder if Mary evolved from pagan goddesses as a way of incorporating an element of the divine feminine. There are obvious similarities with Isis, Ishtar and others, and i have no problem seeing Mary as one in a long line of revered virgin mothers.

I don't think it is right though when people make the case that the Christian church was responsible for suppressing the worship of the feminine. Major pagan traditions were already doing that themselves - in the Greek, Roman and Norse pantheons the goddesses are largely reduced to consorts or offspring rather than of equal if not greater stature than the gods. The abrahamic religions just took us one more step along that particular road.

Neither Isis nor Ishtar were virgins

Mary was. In fact the church makes a great deal of denying the sexuality of Mary, and effectively all women. In fact the whole crux of the garden of eden story. Sex for women is dirty, something to be endured and controlled.

The church has never quite come to terms with the cunt.

user, I disagree. As I understand it, the crux of the issue is, we can transcend our biology, according to the NT. Children are celebrated, however it is unimportant whether they are our biological children.

"For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband." (Galatians 4:27)

This is in contrast to the many ancient Pagan sexually explicit statues of men and women carrying weapons, you mentioned upthread, celebrating 'fertility' and I would suppose violence, that is overpowering others with weapons...

Hunting weapons? It is you who suggest overpowering others. But then you are a christian- will come naturally.

Transcend our biology?

So a woman could become pope?