Info re converting to Islam please

[MirandaGoshawk]

DD's friend - let's call her Emma (nhrn) - went on holiday to Morocco a few weeks ago & fell for the son of the people who owned the small hotel where she was staying. She's been back since and they are besotted with each other. They are both 23. They have spent approx 4 weeks total together but want to get married, but he has said that she must:

• convert to Islam
• wear a headscarf when she's out & about
• change her name to an Arabic one.

So my questions:

She is not religious and is prepared to consider converting, as she's not 'giving up' a religion, but can you convert if you don't believe?

After they marry, will she be 'his property' and unable to do things without his permission? (I may be totally off-beam here but need to know.)

If they have dch, she is living in Morocco and it all goes belly-up, would she be able to return to the UK with the dch without his permission?

My position is that I am fond of her and alarm bells are ringing. Please reassure me!

Excuse me. What exactly does that mean? That all Muslim men are the same?

Under Moroccan law, in the case of a divorce, children over seven would go to the father.
Source - long conversations with Moroccan friend about feminism, society etc.

sorry, forgot the instant MN knee-jerk that a suggestion that one man belonging to one group is telling it like he is means that they are all the same.

only reporting a known phenomenon. Many religious Jews and Christians (and probably others) restrict what their wives can do. There's probably a similar situation there, although the meeting on holiday thing is less likely.

facts aren't offensive. Come on, the guy is telling her how it will be and she is refusing to listen.

I had an interesting discussion about this once with a friend of mine about the reasoning for custody going to the father. In a lot of countries when marriages break down some men go awol and refuse to fulfil their financial responsibilities towards their children. This results in the mother and children being plunged in to destitution especially in countries where there are few economic and educational opportunities for women. Also when you have a lot of children it would be quite difficult for the mother to remarry if she kept custody of her children whilst it would be less difficult for the father to remarry in the same position. By granting custody to fathers it forces them to acknowledge not only their childrens rights to be provided for (especially when father is the only/main bread winner) but also to see their fathers too. It doesnt mean the mother cant see them but it forces both parents to fulfil their childrens rights on them.

In one way I can understand why in a country like Morocco they make that call. Of course in a society which is more equal and economic opportunities are more readily available for women to work and provide for their children too then custody should be more equal. That is the type of society ideally we should be moving towards.

FWIW I think she's bonkers to be thinking about marrying him, unless he comes to the UK.

Does anyone remember "Not Without My Daughter"? It was a true story, film & book about an American woman who married a 'modern' Iranian, they had a DD & lived in the US. But when they went to visit his parents in Iran he took away her passport, made her wear a burqa and refused to let her leave with her DD. She got them fake passports & escaped eventually. So that is in my mind & I will recommend she reads the book if I can. Except she won't think that he could be like that, will she?

I imagine that suggesting she reads that book or many of the other stories like it you will just wind her up. She will never believe that such a thing could happen to her and it may even make her more determined to carry on and prove you all wrong. Its a shame she cant have a taste of life as a housewife for a couple of months over there, not holiday mode but general day to day living. Preferably with a Moroccan family. That might give her something to think about.

Does she have family over here that would care?

I find your post deeply flawed and ignorant special. You are regurgitating a caricature of Muslim men which you imply is the norm. What evidence do you have for that assertion by the way. This stereoyype is often used to portray Muslims as 'other' and justify anti-muslim violence and abuse. Well they have it coming anyway.

Go on to relationship page and tell me again its mainly religious people who restrict their partners. You'll find controlling idiots come from all walks of life. This man is not just another Muhammed (another very ignorant stereotype which shows what exactly how limited your cultural awareness is). His actions and words reflect his opinions not some innate shared abusive consciousness that all muslim men possess.

This man is telling her what he expects of her. Is she happy to do this for the rest of her life?

They must be wealthy if they own a hotel, so she may find she has nothing to do all day but shop and socialise and she may be happy with the life.

Think she needs to spend time getting to know him and his family before marrying him.

There's a lot of stereotyping on here. I have been told that 'Not without my daughter' is a very romanticised version of the truth and anyway Iran is nothing like Morocco, it's like comparing China and Japan. I spent months living in a 'traditional' Moroccan family as a student, I loved it. There's no reason why she would be a 'housewife', many women work and there would be lots of opportunities for her to teach English or work for an international company, in particular if she speaks a bit of French. There is a wide network of English-speaking women living in Morocco, some Muslim converts, some not. I can put her in touch if needed. As long as you have enough money for necessities, it's honestly a brilliant place to live in, and presumably they must live in a touristic place if they have a hotel. At 23, I think she's old enough to make decisions for herself without people portraying her as a naive little girl.

Owning a hotel doesn't necessarily make his family wealthy, at least not to our standards. His family's wealth is also not something she ought to consider when deciding on whether to marry this man. Even a life of leisure can be horrible.

Mind you, if they own a hotel, I doubt she'd enjoy a life of leisure anyway. More likely she'd be working all hours for the family business. One might even suspect it'd suit them very well to have an English speaking European working at the hotel, from a business point of view.

Think slavery and servitude only happens to trafficked women from poor countries? Think again. I was listening to a radio programme not so long ago about a British Consul rescuing a British woman living, effectively, as a slave to her in-laws in Indonesia. It was some tourists who stayed at her in-laws' guest house who raised the alarm and organised the rescue.

You could argue that it's quite good that he is telling her upfront what he expects. Not all men are so clear. For example I did not know I was supposed to convert to Islam to get married until the day of my wedding! It came as a shock to me (it is not an Islamic requirement, but it was the law of the country that only people of the same religion may marry - still is the case now as far as I know). I was never asked to wear a hijab (headscarf) except for certain social occasions, such as weddings and funerals. No one asked me to change my name (not even take his name, like we do in this country) and I never became his property.

I agree with Roly that it is a good thing he is being upfront. A lot of men wait until they have you firmly in their pocket before showing their true colours. What she decides to do now will set the tone for the rest of their relationship. I think she should challenge him and see what he does. He might back down if she shows she has a backbone but if she agrees to change everything about herself on his say so then she will probably be spending her life prioritising his wants her own. And if he walks consider herself saved.

Yep, I agree with that Special. Good point about having a Brit working in the hotel, Roly. You have all given a bit of perspective here. I should clarify that the 'hotel' is more of a guesthouse/hostel, and it's in a small town so although they get lots of tourists of different nationalities I don't think there would be much opportunity for her to work for an international company. But it's beautiful (I've been there) clean etc. I'm not sure I could live there. I found Morocco a bit of a challenge. DH & I travelled around and we got a lot of hassle! But each to their own.

I've learned that although he never travels outside the town, he has a sister who married a foreigner and lives abroad. So although he may have a small-town mentality he can't be totally ignorant of the outside world.

She is going for a month soon, so hopefully she will get a taste of what life there would be like!

decisions Yes, she has a family here who are reportedly wringing their hands and even (jokingly,I presume) threatened to have her passport taken away in the way that parents can do if they suspect their dch of going off to join ISIL.

Anyway, thanks again and I'll keep you posted.