Believing in God

[TooBusyByHalf]

On an earlier thread I asked where does belief in God come from? I got lots of really helpful replies, recommended reading, and people telling me the stories of how they came to believe.

The more I read (and talk to people - though that part still makes me squirm a bit!) the more I come across the view that you can't reason your way to faith. You can rationalise it when you get there but the faith part seems to be pretty much you either feel it or you don't.

Which is depressing, because I want to feel it but I can't. And I have no idea really how MN can help me with this one or why I've started another thread on this topic except that I have no-one to talk to in RL about this and lots of you have been really nice to me before.

Find any quiet place.
Sit. Breathe.
Tell God you are there.
Calm your mind (focus on breathing).
Wait.

That's all you need to do. Really. If you aren't convinced by the outcome, do it again another time. No clock-watching while you're waiting. He's there, and He's ready when you are.

TooBusy, I’m no longer with the DP mentioned – it was a long time ago and I should probably have made it clearer. We actually did end up splitting up because of his faith. But I want to reassure you that the situation we were in was different to your situation in fundamental ways.

We were at university – so younger than you and your DP. He was converted by a group of Born Again Christians. They put a lot of pressure on him to break up with me. He was in a vulnerable state at the time as well - the group’s talk of death, Hell and sinfulness really frightened him. In the end it seemed to me that he succumbed to a kind of religious version of Stockholm Syndrome.

In your case, in contrast, you have freely chosen to investigate Christianity rather than having an extreme form thrust upon you. If you decide to join a group, it will be a moderate, inclusive group on the liberal wing of Christianity. Moreover, you don’t see your DP as less than you because she is not a Christian - and you care about her and want to make it work.

With all of the above points in your favour, I see no reason why you can’t weather the current storm.

But I do feel that I can understand where your DP is coming from when she said she was worried you were turning to God because she doesn't look after you well enough. I can remember a similar feeling - 'Maybe if I just love more, he won't feel the need for God'.

Hi rogue that's interesting. I was thinking about exploring Buddhism but I didn't get further than a couple of websites and amazon. I was simultaneously reading a lot about Christianity and I seem to have got pretty stuck on that path for the time being. I will bear it in mind if it doesn't work out! My DP thinks this is like a middle aged version of teenage anxt or a sort of mid life crisis. She keeps saying why couldn't you just buy a fast car instead of trying to work out the meaning of life? But I think a spiritual path or one kind or another will be more fulfilling in the long fun

On the moral front, DP and I had a long chat last night (not explicitly about morals but touching the theme often). I think we have exactly the same values though we sometimes think of different paths to the same purpose. That was really reasurring for both of us I think.

Mrstwee Thanks I am trying to do that. And it is getting easier and easier. It's strange having this discussion on this thread because I'm already not the person I was when I wrote the OP. Spiritually it's definitely been the most dramatic week of my life.

Out I'm sorry to hear that it didn't work out for you but it sounds like there were a lot of barriers in your way. Thank for your reassurrance. I am entirely committed to my family - wife and kids come first always - so I know we will find a way, even though we won't agree.

Although DP doesn't think I'm doing the right thing we've actually been very close the last couple of days. I feel so much better having told her, and I think the honesty will be really good for our relationship.

There are many branches of Buddhism - some more 'ascetic' than others. The centre I go to is a Triratna (formerly Friends of the Western Buddhist Order) - its aim is to support Buddhist principles within a modern (western) setting. Lots of individual talks as well as the courses and day retreats.

An excellent site is Free Buddhist Audio.

TBH I'd love to go to (Christian) church and the Buddhist centre! I'm sure my aims and values are broadly Christian - but I don't believe in the resurrection, or a god....

Buddhism emphasises our place within the 'universe' and shows ways of conditioning your actions and reactions to be compassionate - to yourself as well as others. Even more than Christianity it takes a psychological approach to achieving an ethical lifestyle. IMO The two most common (probably 'basic') meditation practices aim to develop a mindfulness of the fact that we are all on the same path and unethical actions come from a psychological imbalance/lack of self-awareness. One meditation practises being mindful in general with a background mindset that 'actions have consequences' and the other practises the development of a mindset which is kindly disposed towards all beings; forgiving in the sense of remembering that unethical actions hurt the person doing them and come from something lacking or unbalanced in the 'doer'.

When we're all in balance with each other - everyone will have peace and be ethical. Achieving (inner) peace facilitates ethical living and ethical living makes mindfulness/inner peace easier....

For me the faith comes in at the level of 'actions have consequences' - I went through a phase, post losing my Christian faith, of trying to come to terms with a new feeling that much of life is random, the meek will not inherit the earth and the way to distract yourself from existential angst or anger at injustice is to forget about the concept of spiritual development by doing useful and/or absorbing stuff.

Many years later I've realised that actions do have consequences and I'm trying to hold on to and nurture a faith that I will become more peaceful and ethical by practising the Buddhist teachings. Though doing useful and/or absorbing stuff is helpful to everyone too - and encouraged by most religions, as far as I can see. It seems to me that prayer might serve a similar purpose with meditation.

I think religions are all about helping people live within a community peacefully and fairly. I expect some people strive to be ethical by working for political reform too!

Something that might help you is to think of faith as a fire - it won't start without sustained action - it can be maintained by little-and-often actions but they might not be enough to start it.... Rubbing sticks together for ten minutes a day for ten years won't start it - but keeping on for an hour might IYSWIM. Like gathering momentum. So doing a retreat or course might be very useful. (not intended to sound like I'm trying to start a cult btw )

I should say - this is just my beginner's understanding of Buddhism and it comes from someone who used to be a Christian.

I'd hope that any religious leader would encourage your spiritual development with or without a set of beliefs. My very committed Christian friend assured me when I was going to church despite no faith, that church is for everyone, not just committed Christians. And she's happy that I am going to the Buddhist centre too.

Good luck.

I'm glad you had a useful conversation with your partner.

Though doing useful and/or absorbing stuff is helpful to everyone too - and encouraged by most religions, as far as I can see. It seems to me that prayer might serve a similar purpose with meditation.

Yes, this, absolutely. Almost all the people I know spend their lives being useful (teachers, nurses etc). And that is the path I was on too. But what has really started to make me live better, be nicer, be kinder and so on is not the busyness of my albeit worthwhile occupation, it's prayer. In the last two or three weeks I've spent more time in prayer than in the last 20+ years and the effect on me is already almost profound, I think.

My DP called me a Christian today. I nearly said 'no I'm not that (yet)' and then I thought maybe I am. Which is not to say I have unswerving belief in every aspect of Christian doctrine but that I am committed for now at least to trying to trust God. I think.

Going back to what bes said about being further along than she thought I would be, I guess that's what happens when you obsess about an idea.

And on the subject of the vicar as discussed up thread, I emailed her 2 and a half days ago and no reply.

Ah, it's been Bank Holiday so don't worry but this time last year would you have guessed you'd be this excited about a Christianity course?

I think sneering can sometimes be a way of people trying to show they acknowledge what you have said but in a lighthearted fashion, it can help mask embarrassment.

Regarding Doctrine I find Ephesians 4:13-14

"13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;" (KJV)

And I think it is a good thing that you can talk openly to your partner about your beliefs and innermost thoughts, even though she may not share them - shows you are very close.

^ that should say I find Ephesians 4:14 comforting, in that it gives me hope.

caps yes thats a good point about being excited about the course! But it's not so much the course itself, but that I told her in the email that I have nobody to talk to in RL about God and asked for her help so it really feels like she's not happy to do that and I feel a bit of a fool for asking. Though I realise another probable explanation is the bank holiday.

In the absence of talking I've been reading more - and have stopped hiding the books. But that's not easy cos DP can write off me going to church once as 'just for the singing' or whatever, but now she can see the stack of books she's going to get worried again.

And I think it is a good thing that you can talk openly to your partner about your beliefs and innermost thoughts

Did I say that? If I did I was being wildly optimistic! I have told her I'm not sure I don't believe in God anymore, I did tell her I was going to church and that I liked it. We can talk about morality and values. But I certainly can't talk to her about all this. She would laugh cry or punch the wall if she thought I was actually praying or reading the bible.

Don't worry, my DH's eyes have been known to glaze over somewhat when I have wanted to talk at length about religious faith. He's not particularly atheist and is ok with churches but does not really seem to want to talk to the lengths I have wanted to. But that is what MN is good for

My interest did not seem to surprise him that much though and sometimes he enjoys watching the more archeological biblical documentaries with me. Initially when I wanted to explore my faith more and bought my own full Bible (only had a Gideon's NT from school) I said it was something I was curious about - which he understood - I have always loved old texts anyway. Perhaps the academic historical / anthropological/ historical element might be more easy for your partner to appreciate your interest in, at least initially.

^don't feel like a fool for asking your vicar. They are naturally one of the first people a person would think of regarding talking over spiritual matters. You're not to know her schedule or availability unless you ask.

I quite often think it's good to have some things in your life your partner doesn't share.

I don't really talk about my spirituality with my DH, but I have friends who I have only ever met once or twice that I have talked about my profoundest spiritual experiences with. He lives with the result of my prayers, my reading and my worship; I don't insist that he has to hear all about it.

If you've not heard back from the vicar in a couple of days forward her the message again, with a 'I've been having trouble with my email and just checking that you've actually got this' kind of message. When I forget to answer emails because I've got other stuff on I'm usually very grateful for this kind of tactful reminder .

Have now had a lovely reply - in fact so timely I think she may be lurking

Sounds like things are beginning to work out well - new doors are opening.

niminy
I quite often think it's good to have some things in your life your partner doesn't share.

I agree. All of the straight couples we're close to are much better at maintaining individual interests and identities than the lesbians are though. One problem is that women who love each other are often best friends as well as partners and tend to merge interests, friends, everything. (Obviously not all long term lesbian couples but it is true for me and DP, and also several other couples we know). So my doing something now that she perceives as out of character, difficult, maybe even threatening, and which she knows she will never share introduces an entirely new situation in the relationship which goes beyond the mere facts of it iyswim.

We have also always had entirely shared finances (and both have well paid jobs though she earns more than me) and have never once argued over money - we just have completely the same sense of what our priorities should be. When she saw a Christian book yesterday she said that's my money you know. It was a joke, but even still that could become an issue I know.

Which reminds me of another story. About 3 months ago I got an appeal for donations for my old school chapel organ. She threw it straight in the bin. I said oi that was addressed to me you know. She said we don't want to give money to that do we? I said no but if it had been my other old school chapel fundraising I would at which she spluttered and huffed.

That's two incidents in 15 years where we've even nearly disagreed about money and both concerning religion. Is she going to start counting how much I put in the collection plate?!

If you start to disagree on the things you want to spend your communal pot of money on why not each have a separate account which you can syphon an agreed amount of money into each month? It might actually be nice for surprise presents.

Tbh you should be able to make some automonous decisions regarding how you spend your money, otherwise it is like being a very small child again ( even older children get pocket money). She might not like you exploring Christian beliefs but she must admit you are free to do so and unless you start changing the way you relate to her or others, in a way she doesn't like, what is there to complain about?

Yes I know caps but it would like her suddenly deciding to spend £10 a week in McDonalds (sorry that sounds snobbish but it's just something we don't do). I would think it very wasteful!

We do actually have small separate 'present giving' pots - though we often just siphon them back to pay for car repairs or something. I suppose I could use that but I'm not sure that would better - wouldn't that mean she actually was controlling my spending by removing it from the communal pot all together? Or is it more sensible just to do that anyway to remove a potential source of friction before it turns into something?

Tbh I would just maybe do that anyway, personally, if it is a source of conflict. Unless you've really got to economise, it is a bit hard for me to imagine being bothered by such small spends - it won't be like rare really expensive books will it? Or massive massive donations to the church?

No of course not. It's small sums. The principle not the impact.
As I said I don't really know if it's a source of conflict but I don't want it to become one.

Well, to be fair this is probably unknown territory for her. Added to this, it is undeniable that some corrupt elements within organised religion have been a source of war, abuse and prejudice. This is not IMO the true heart of Christianity. You will probably have to do your best to keep reassuring her, until she is more familiar with what your own Christian belief will mean for you and her.

rogue

instead of giving up because of my usual feeling that I can't commit wholly to it because there are a few aspects that I don't like or would give less priority.

This was something that was really worrying me too. I'm coming round to the view that it doesn't matter if you don't get it all at once. For me now it's the striving that counts, and letting go of the feeling that I have to know the answers to the tough questions and just giving God a chance. Lots of posters on this thread have helped me with that and the consequence has been that already I feel nearer to God, more at ease in prayer, and more certain that I should persevere.

Yes! I'm sure you're right.

And funnily enough I'm coming to see that if you're open to 'seeing how I feel', 'giving it a go' you will probably be more receptive to the stirrings of faith than if you're determinedly trying to force it. After all, we're more than our thoughts; our intention, actions and the feelings we experience are at least as much 'us' as the things we think. And we needn't think that we are whatever (whether atheist/pessimist/not-spiritual....) and that's the end of it. As another poster said, if we can take some time to be still then we're allowing the possibility of faith, instead of closing it down with distractions. For you ; a feeling that you are touched by a diving presence, for me a feeling of being more in harmony with the 'cosmos'. Ultimately, I'm sure we'll all benefit.

Oh no! "A diving presence"? aka monster from the deep?! That was meant to be 'divine' presence