If there is a creator God, why did it take him 13 billion years to create humans?

[TooBusyByHalf]

Thinking a lot about God. I'm an atheist, but sometimes unwillingly. But the idea of God just makes no sense to me. If there was a (Christian for the sake of argument) God, it would seem (from the Bible) that it's all about us (mankind). In which case what were the 13 billion years before Moses / Jesus for? Or you could ask the same question of all the time that the earth existed before there was life, or from life to Homo sapiens etc etc. I've been reading stuff people have written about why they believe in God, but no-one ever addresses that question.

I appreciate that many Christians allegorise much of the OT. But Jesus referred to it a lot and appeared to be a literalist.

For what it is worth, I don't think Jesus was a literalist.

Well he was either literally the Son of God or he wasn't.

heylilbunny I thought headinhands was meaning he took the Hebrew Scriptures, which we call the Old Testament, literally. If so I do n't think he kept all the laws in the way that they used to be kept and showed us a new way (the Sabbath is made for man - and woman- not man for the Sabbath) but if you are asking about what I literally believe about him then I believe he is God made man, which we usually refer to as the Son of God. Which is the traditional trinitarian view. But I am not sure headinhands was referring to that.

But God wanted people killed for collecting sticks on the sabbath and then says 'hey, I just want you to chill'. If the OT doesn't reflect God at all why did he allow it to be part of his message and why did Jesus refer to it. Jesus could have said 'the scriptures are not a reflection of God and are manmade' but no he was happy to endorse them.

It just seems to me that if religion was not divinely inspired but just invented by humans then each geographically separate part of the world would have separate religions and distinct (and often incompatible) ideas about God (or the gods) that relate only to themselves and their own bit of the world. And that's what religions all seem to be like, isn't it?

headinbhands I am going to answer you for now because I feel in the mood but I know that pretty soon I won't feel in the mood due to being a bit over busy this week! So when I get to that point, please do not be offended. We have debated together a lot in the past and it just goes no where, and I know that, and so do you, so it is fine but I don't want you to be offended or think you have me stumped if/when I decide not to answer, I mean it might be days, weeks, years, but I just feel you are not interested in real debate or talking but just want to prove me wrong, and you cannot any more than I can prove me right!

I do not believe God wanted that rule in the Hebrew Scriptures about collecting sticks on the Sabbath, I think it is a man made rule that made it in there. Along with killing unruly children and people caught in adultery. Jesus had a chance to stone a woman caught in adultery and didn't.

NotDavidTennant so you think religion is man made? Maybe some of it is. I believe some of it isn't. There are some common themes but you are right they can't all be right. But that doesn't mean they are all wrong.

Debate is very much about showing someone's position to be untenable, or having your own position shown to be untenable in which case you go away and do some rejigging. I do learn from talking here, not that my position is wrong, not yet anyway, but how you are able to be logical and believe in a specific religion.

Thanks Headinhands that is very gracious of you. I realise my post was incredibly arrogant to think you had posted your question to me!

My apologies (spell check changed it to apologetics, how apt!).

I may well be confusing you with another poster!

I used to post a lot more here but in the end I found it difficult as some people just seemed to want to tear down faith, and as I believe faith can be very positive I did not want my faith to be torn down, or constantly challenged, but gentle challenging is fine! And yes, as I say, you may well have been directing that to someone else and I arrogantly assumed it was me!

i did not want my faith to be torn down

I assume that people here can cope with challenge and they quickly back off if it makes them feel uncomfortable. If after a debate my position feels torn down I would find that very interesting and want to know why. If I decided that the way to deal with the problem was to get others to not ask certain questions/use certain words or just avoided it all together I would know that It was because there was a flaw in my belief system that needed shielding from analysis.

I understand that faith can be comforting, but this thread and the ones I inhabit are ones where posters have been asked their opinion, not prayer requests so I do show respect for the different types of interaction that are called for, that's not to say that posters still don't get upset with my responses at times but as I said the way to handle feeling upset with examination of your belief is to have a think about why you're upset. I don't mean to sound patronising btw it is absolutely not my intention.

Going back to the OT, how are you able to decide which bits we can disregard as merely 'cultural oddities that made it in' and which bits God actually wanted in there? I reckon I know the answer and it comes down to your advanced 21st century morality being overlaid onto the bible and the mismatched bits are delegated.

Matthew 15 v 3 Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’[ and ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death."

Why would Jesus quote that if he didn't stand by it in any way?

we have debated together a lot in the past and it just goes nowhere

During my journey out of faith I spent a lot of time watching other people's discussions on message boards so I'm aware that it's not just the people who are taking who are involved. Plus I hate housework :)!

headinhands as I say, it may well not be you, all these names can sound so similar and I am going back a while. I may be getting mixed up so please excuse me and accept my apologies.

In my opinion, whether one's faith in anything is strong or not, it is possible to feel unsettled by comments, it doesn't mean ones faith is wrongly placed, IMHO.

How do I personally choose which bits seem right? Was that to me headinhands? If so, I use my common sense. I use what I know of God from my experience of God in my life over the last 32 years and my understanding of the culture the Bible was written in (which is limited but not totally absent) and of my own culture.

I try and take from any bit of the Bible what I think is relevant for me.

Plus the internet is a great place to look!

Barnes' Notes on Matthew 15:3

But he answered ... - They accused him of violating their traditions, as though they were obligatory.

"In his answer he implied that his disciples were not bound to obey their traditions - they were invented by human beings. He said, also, that those traditions could not be binding, as they violated the commandments of God. He proceeded to specify a case in which their tradition made void one of the plain laws of God; and if that was their character, then they could not blame him for not regarding them."

I don't think he meant, go and kill your parents. When he was before the woman caught in adultery where the law said she could/should be stoned, he did not. So I don't take those laws to be binding on anyone. Where they came from is anyone's guess but for me they did not come from a God who loved me enough to go to the cross for me.

And yes, I hate housework too!

PS I am off tomorrow for a few days with family so if I do not reply, please do not think I am ignoring you, I am away from the interweb!

Jesus said 'and why do you break the command of God'. That's not refuting that it was God who said it in any way. You hit the nail on the head when you say that a God who loves you wouldn't order children to be stoned. You use the idea of what you want God to be to interpret the bible, and because you are loving and gentle the God/Jesus you have created is nice too. Interestingly that chapter in Matthew contains Jesus' casual racism which again you interpret through your well formed morality and conclude that it can't mean what it says, whereas the comforting bits mean just what they say.

Unsettled by comments

And as such they would either not be debating or they would back off pretty quickly. I'm going to assume everyone on here is old enough to not need the kid gloves treatment. If I get unsettled I find it interesting and is the way my ideas have developed over time, by having my toes stepped on and being exposed to internal contradictions that I previously hadn't noticed.

Headinhands was that a compliment to me? If so, thank you.

I am not afraid to debate faith but I am, at times, bored by it. You dear Headinhands are not boring so I am happy to chat but now away for next two days. I must also remember it is Too's thread and she is searching and I do not want to detract from that and if I feel my answers may detract from that I will stop posting. If you want to argue with me, feel free to pm me.

I am now too old to forget God or leave him out of my musings, I may make mistakes and get things wrong but life with God is better than life without him. And what I try and do and say is to protect both myself and others but to engage as much as I can. It is not that I am afraid to debate, it is that I would like to debate with others who are seeking, and I feel sometimes on her some are not seeking but I always try, always if I can, to look for the best in people and if I fail to do that, please do tell me.

Hugs to all.

on here not on her!

Because he wanted to enjoy the world before it got destroyed

Not sure where I stand on all this. I used to be a firm believer but not as much now. I agree with the concept of time being relative. It's the only way to explain the making the world in seven days. But I don't understand how very learned people can believe in religion because logically I can't see it.

italian please don't worry about this being 'my' thread. I resurrected it because I was interested to hear more Christian perspectives and to tell outwith that I finally understand what she was saying, and to apologise to niminy for being dismissive. But I'm very happy for it to morph into whatever debate anyone wants to have