Giving up Christianity

[Love51]

I have been an active Christian for a long time. I've been heavily involved in the church my whole life - I did my "gap" year working for a Christian organisation, have done preaching, worship leading, PCC, etc. I've always had a church, whenever I've moved house I would find a church soon. I've been "questioning" my faith for quite a while, but was so invested in the church I didn't really feel safe to move on. The church is like my extended family, but closer, and they don't have to stay for days on end when they visit! Just this week I've come to a realisation that it (Christianity) is all wrong. So, I'm wondering if anybody else has "lost their faith" later in life, and how they went about moving in with their lives.

I've been a Christian so long that I don't know how to move on past that, it feels like I've decided to start drowning kittens or something. How do you deal with that huge dent in your identity?

OP, are you able to explain a bit more about why the God you were believing in cannot exist and Christianity 'is all wrong'? I am interested in what you feel has changed for you. I think it can be very difficult when one's whole life has revolved around church. Often we can get very caught up in the social and organisational bit of 'church', and I agree that it may be good just to simplify all that at the moment and take some time out to think. Is there anyone in RL that you could talk things through with? Not necessarily at church but most Christians will have experienced times when they were doubting what they believed.

Thank you all for helping me through this. Each time I read it something different resonates, so sorry if I contradict myself, its part of the confusion.
Vdb you asked what has changed. Over the time I was struggling I started to suspect that some believers, myself included, were having to persuade themselves to believe. Then an issue came up in life unrelated to church about a person having to make a decision about whether to allow a child to continue to see a family member who may, but not for sure, pose a risk. It hit me that God the Father, if he exists, allows many children each day to be abused. So, he can't exist as I perceived Him.

"I asked, are you ready?" said the Lion. "Yes," said Digory. He had for a second some wild idea of saying "I'll try to help you if you'll promise to help my Mother," but he realized in time that the Lion was not at all the sort of person one could make bargains with. But when he had said "Yes," he thought of his Mother, and he thought of the great hopes he had had, and how they were all dying away, and a lump came in his throat and tears in his eyes and he blurted out: "But please, please-won't you-can't you give me something that will cure my Mother?" Up till then he had been looking at the Lion's great feet and the huge claws on them; now, in his despair, he looked up at its face. What he saw surprised him as much as anything in his whole life. For the tawny face was bent down near his own and (wonder of wonders) great shining tears stood in the Lion's eyes. They were such big, bright tears compared with Digory's own that for a moment he felt as if the Lion must really be sorrier about his Mother than he was himself. - The Magician's Nephew by C.S. Lewis

The problem of pain is an age old question. My daughter has just discovered Narnia and this quote is from the first book where you first meet Aslan ( who is meant to represent Christ) It illustrates to me beautifully how whenever I have been through painful experiences, I have not necessarily understood the WHY? but have had a sense that God was giving me strength but also crying with me.
C S Lewis also said
“God created things which had free will. That means creatures which can go wrong or right. Some people think they can imagine a creature which was free but had no possibility of going wrong, but I can't. If a thing is free to be good it's also free to be bad. And free will is what has made evil possible. Why, then, did God give them free will? Because free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. A world of automata -of creatures that worked like machines- would hardly be worth creating. "
If God struck us down dead every time one of us went to commit a sin, we would all be dead. It really is human beings we have to blame for the cruelty that we inflict on each other, even when it is done in the name of religion.If there was no religion there would still be wars and killing and abuse, as several communist regimes have proved.
But.....such tough questions and I think we will always be wrestling with something we don't understand. Thinking of you. x

I personally - again - row an awful lot with God. There is a great deal i am outraged and angry about. I don't mean to sound flippant when I say that. I don't think the church 'does' conflict very well tbh.

If we are offended or hurt in a close and intimate relationship, would we just walk away? My guess is we'd have it out. It probably wouldnt be attractive.

The thing is, if you flip the switch that says 'there is no god', there is no need to do all this rationalisation. That's the thing I realised. It isn't like having a row with a person, in this case the person doesn't exist.

In my case I had something utterly random, pretty rare and very traumatic happen to me. I struggled with the 'why me? Will this make me stronger? Am I being tested stuff.'

But the answer is just 'there is no god.' Random bad & random good stuff happens to people & there simply is no logic. And that's absolutely fine. There are underlying explanations for things, like earthquakes or volcanos, but no reason why one person dies in the resulting tsunami and another survives.

Coming to an acceptance of that is really very soothing. It is a bit like forgiving someone, truly in your heart - they lose their power over you. I forgave god & he disappeared in a puff of smoke!

Thanks for the tips on singing btw - I mostly have to wait to be invited to christenings & weddings and sing far too loudly. I grew up in a very large Evangelical church where there were so many people no-one could hear you unless you were mic-ed up. Now when I'm belting out 'all things bright & beautiful' small children turn round to look at me and their parents hush them

And as for the terrible things that humans do to each other, they need to account for that in this life to their peers. Unfortunately when they are dead, it's too late. There's no reckoning.

So it is important that humans build societies that support each other, try to prevent the conditions that lead to people doing terrible things (poverty, abuse, addiction, trauma) but then collectively deal with people who are not safe to be around others. In other words, democratic law making and an independent and effective criminal justice system.

Also I think that the rationalisation of bad stuff leads Christianity to focus on how flawed human are. And to chalk our amazing achievements up to 'gifts from god'. The scientific advances we have made in maternal and infant mortality, for example, aren't 'gifts'. They were the combined efforts of clever, hard-working and effective humans. We do great stuff!

I just wanted to write a few words in praise of doubts! Having doubts is often derided whilst having faith is lauded. The stronger the faith, the ‘better’ the Christian you are, or so we are told.

I wish that doubts were viewed more positively within Christianity – after all, having doubts is a survival strategy that has evolved to keep us safe.

I believe the tiger has gone but let me just have a look before I leave my hiding place …

To me, it seems clear that belief and doubt form a system of checks and balances that allow us to navigate a path between the recklessness of an excess of belief and the paralysis of an excess of doubt.

When it comes to Christianity and other religions, however, we are asked to relinquish doubt and that just does not seem a safe – or human - way to proceed.

In your case, OP, as others have mentioned, your doubts are attached in part to the problem of worshipping a God who allows suffering in his world. Worshipping such a fickle being does not seem a very secure thing to do and having doubts about it seems natural to me. Christians sometimes get around the conundrum by saying that some suffering is inevitable given our sinful nature or that some suffering is inevitable as we travel along a route of God’s choosing that will eventually lead to a fortuitous conclusion – as we would realise if only we could see the big picture as he does. Some say suffering is like cod liver oil – it’s not palatable but it’s good for us.

However these types of arguments are shot through with logical holes on close inspection and furthermore accepting them leads to debasing feelings of guilt or impotent fatalism and ignorance.

As an atheist, I accept that the problem of suffering is a deal-breaker for me and leave it at that.

However, you are reluctant to give up your faith and wish there were a way you could continue to believe despite your recent realisations.

Would you be prepared to consider the possibility of a non-interventionist God? Some people feel they are in touch with a loving presence in testing times but a presence that is incapable of acting on the physical world – a kinder but less powerful sort of God.

I am always quite surprised by the variety of beliefs that are found within Christianity. Many progressive Christians are prepared to throw quite a lot of spiritual sandbags out the balloon and if you are feeling weighed down by some of your beliefs, perhaps you should just chuck a few of these sandbags out the basket rather than giving up on the whole balloon ride.

In this regard, I have found it interesting to listen to some of the ideas presented by John Shelby Spong en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Shelby_Spong (and others like him) on Youtube. He reframes Christianity in such a way that the problem of suffering is no longer relevant. Some find him too radical but I think his viewpoint is worth considering.

Even if you do decide to leave Christianity, it’s not all bad. While I do not have personal experience of a loss of faith, many report to having found it freeing. The triple jumper Jonathan Edwards is on record as saying that after the initial turmoil of loss, he realised that he felt more at peace with himself as a non-believer than he did as a believer.

(Sorry for long waffle! )

What a thoughtful and compassionate post Outwith

Hi

Julia Sweeney's "Letting Go of God" is very good.

Thanks all, much to think about. Every single post has been helpful!

The thing is, if you flip the switch that says 'there is no god', there is no need to do all this rationalisation. This resonated with me a lot. Its easier not to believe! On the one hand, it makes more sense. On the other, its a bit of a cop out to make a choice based on ease! But that ease is based on not having to tie myself in knots to make something seem possible....

I'm off to let the vicar know I won't be part of the church any more. By email as I don't really want to have to justify /explain everything I've been thinking (because one or two of the points might not make sense!) but I don't want to just not tell them.

Well I've emailed. Its hard to even speak to church people without using a whole different language that is predicated on the existence of a certain type of God.

I hope it all goes well.

Well done Love511, that must have taken a great deal of courage. Wishing you a clear path ahead.

And

Thanks for this thread, it's just what I needed. Outwith-love the balloon analogy-it's sort of what I've been working on for years-being brought up in a staunchly Presbyterian family, I'm totally the black sheep. Won't go to any of the churches here as, as pp said they are crap at conflict & I don't want to offend and constantly be argumentative, but won't just nod & be quiet. I hate the church speak too - what's that all about?

Despite this, I still believe there is a God. It feels like there is something deep rooted in my heart & I'm unsure if it's from nature or nurture. I can easily understand faith & atheist views but don't feel there is a church community anywhere that I'd feel at home. I've been in this limbo for so many years & even avoided the religion boards on mumsnet.

It's such a personal decision that
I'm not sure how you come to a decision. Anyone who has left 'the church' is obviously going to say it's great, otherwise they'd be back at church showing the other side. I could maybe entertain the idea of a non interventionist God but that kind of still leaves me with no church community. Quakers sound ace though-why can't all churches just do this & let everyone believe what they like. I hate the way it's so militant.

Thanks all.
evelynj the church speak is something you get in all organisations (NHS speak, management speak) - but it reinforces the fact that the people speaking it are coming from the same world view. I understand the militancy but I don't like it.

I'm off to see a friend today, she will be the first real life person except my husband (long standing agnostic / close to atheist) that I've told. She's not religious, so its a trial run for telling my parents and others!

evelynj I can identify with every single word of your post. I've never been truly comfortable with "christianese". I still identify as Christian, but there's just so much with the evangelical church that I now have problems with - the role of women, etc. I'd consider going back to the CofE of my youth but I remember not really feeling into that either. Plus DH would not approve at all.

Up to two years ago, I was in a totally different place, but I think I've not read the Bible faithfully since about then, let alone prayed. Only have one person I can be this honest with IRL.

There's one church nearby I might try. I don't know, I feel spiritually numb, kind of indifferent towards God, the Bible and prayer. Admitting this is causing (another) rift in my marriage but I have to be truthful to myself.

I've been dealing with inner conflict about it for years but why not pick the important bits? Seems to me that people argue about the bits that don't really matter. If 'god is love' is at the centre of things & we're following a broadly similar moral code where's the proble? I know that e.g. I'll never want women & gay people to be treated as anything less than equal so will definitely never change my views to the Presbyterian way of thinking, so no point discussing this point with ministers etc. Does that really mean there's no place for me in the church? It just seems bizarre. The suffering is another point where so think it's ok to say we just don't understand rather than accepting what someone else has decided as a reason for it.

Despicableshe I raised an eyebrow at 'role of women' followed by 'DH would not approve'. Does he work for the church? Because I would want to have another job lined up if I worked for the church and wanted to announce my loss of faith. If he does I can understand him thinking that your religiousity reflects on him, but you can still expect his full support (although he might take a few days to get his head round it) - because isn't it about choice with evangelical churches? Share here if its helpful.
I had a reply from my vicar. Saddened - fair enough. Wanted to know which bit of the c of e I disagreed with - I reiterated the lovjng father stuff and added in political stuff. I couldn't explain about suffering and healing coherently so left it out. Lots of healers in my church, dont want to offend them, they are all lovely. But why would god only heal you if you go to church? Why only those who curry favour? Either not loving or not real :(

Love51 no, he doesn't work for the church, but he has very strong views. To be honest, I was very zealous for some time too, but I've ended up here. Just indifferent.

I don't believe that God only heals churchgoers or Christians, doesn't the New Testament talk about Jesus having compassion for all? I hear what you're saying about suffering though, it's a really tough topic :(

Well there's a few of us on this thread who are believers (ish!) but can't relate to the expression of Christianity in the um west. Or can't get along in church. Or have issues with God. Many years ago, before i was a christian, I knew some Christians who had had a rough time in the church and they got together. They couldn't cope with any Christian lingo so instead of calling their get together a meeting they called it a George ("are you coming to the George tonight?").

I could so do with a George! How joyous it would be to have a place you could say what you think.

As a lifelong second (at least) generation atheist I'd just like to give Love51 a big welcoming hug.

Cheers all. Just had a call from a friend from church - she was coordinating an event ive pulled out of so vicar told her. She still wants to keep in contact. Which i do too, so im happy about that.
I feel quite free about this now. Just a bit nervous about telling my parents! Who are lovely.

Thanks for support and hugs.

That's really positive news about your friend - perhaps you will get a friendlier response to this than you had anticipated? Hope telling parents goes well.
Sending you even more hugs from another atheist!

I'm a bit late to the thread but wanted to respond. I am a survivor of child abuse. I am a Christian which is something I came to in adulthood.

If you read the bible, it is clear that God does not control what we do. We are free to make our own decisions and sometimes we misuse that free will. And while free will sounds alright in theory, in practice it can be awful.

I don't believe God wants us to suffer. But would I want to live in a world where we are all perfect robots? No, I wouldn't.

Love, that's good & hope you're feeling ok.

Peppermint, sorry to hear what you've been through. The free will thing I get-that's fine. There's lots of other things that most churches local to me, at least, have quite closed views on that I can't reconcile myself with & feel if I went to church would either be arguing all the time or just listening to a lot of preaching I disagree with.

I do like the sounds of the Quakers tho.....