Please explain to me how limbo can suddenly no longer exist???

[fartmeistergeneral]

Firstly, am not a catholic and not particularly religious, although constantly curious.

Read a week or so ago that the Pope's advisors were telling him to scrap limbo! Said it was too upsetting for those who had stillborn babies or children who died very young.

Now, that must be the worst imaginable thing ever, to lose a child. HOWEVER, how can the Pope suddenly say 'oh, see that limbo, it's existed for hundreds and hundreds of years, actually, we don't believe in it any more, you children will automatically go to heaven'

So, if you had a stillborn baby 5 years ago and had accepted that it was in limbo, are you now to change you belief completely that it has actually been in heaven all this time??

How can you change such huge beliefs? Are they not derived from the bible? Can 'man' just change things??

Interested to hear from catholics or non catholics.

I can quote Dante! And shall! But only to say what he said (if anyone's interested - texasrose seemed to be) not as an authority. I study him as a work of literature and nothing else. But I do believe that he had done his research, theologically speaking, before he started writing his poem. I was replying to nearly3's idea that anyone who disagreed with Catholic doctrine in the M.Ages would have been burned at the stake. Whereas I think that Dante's idea that only God knows who will be saved and we shouldn't presume to know his mind is much closer to modern ideas than one might think. Sorry if it offended you, harrisey, but I did admit in my first posting that my knowledge ends in the mid-C14th!

Not offended in the slightest as I dont believe in limbo/purgatiry and never have! He might have done his theological research but it is still just a poem and not scripture with any authority.
Nice to know someone though who does know about the medieval church. I am writing an essay atm that goes a bit further back. WHat do youhave on Augustine of Hippo?

Ooh, I love Augustine, harrisey (though not an expert... my field is ... could you have guessed? ... Dante! I could bore for England on Dante!). But I do think that Augustine is amazingly accessible and has a wonderful clarity of thought. What's your title? (At which point I will probably disappear, realising that I know nothing... .)

Ellbell, I suppose I meant 'would have had a hard time' rather than necessarily being burned at the stake! {smile] But I think universalism was a heresy too far (and is still deeply unpopular in many churches) and people were executed for believing it. It seems to me that Dante had a get-out clause anyway if he'd started out with the normal church line? (Sorry, know little of this subject but it is very interesting!)

Harrisey, the Bible is a work of literature. It has recognisable styles. Its content featured in religion of the time e.g. many religions had tales of virgin births, people being fathered by gods etc. I believe if you peel away all of that you can get to the Word of God. And to someone like Ellbell (who I take from what she has said is a non-believer?) it can only be a work of literature and therefore comparable with Dante.

I'm not denying that the Bible is literature - I fully support that view!! What I meant was that the Church could not use Dante to formulate doctrine in the same way as it could use scripture. Though Dante's stuff is amazing, it does not have any authority when formulating what the church teaches. Personally I think that the Bible is different from all other literature, it is a wonderful collection of writings, but it is also the word of God.

Elibell - "Was Augustine of Hippo Good For The Chuch?" Its actually for church history next term but as I like Augustine have been dipping into the 'Confessions' again just for fun!! If you can add anything I'd be really chuffed!

Oh crikey... I don't know enough about Augustine's influence on others within the Church to answer that question. But surely he must have been good... The work I know best is the City of God, because my PhD was on notions of cities and citizenship in you-know-who!

Nearly3, yes, you hit the nail on the head. Dante starts from the 'party line' (for his own time, of course) and bends it just slightly when he feels like it, but not enough to be considered seriously unorthodox. Interestingly the only one of his books to end up on the Index of banned books is one where he attacks the papacy's involvement in politics, so nothing to do with his theological views!

Hmmm, not sure if I define myself as a non-believer. Very much a waverer.

Hi again!

Using Dante to explain/formulate RC theology - Harissey just bear in kind that for RCs church tradition is hugely influential in the making of doctrine, as much as so as scripture. One of the reasons that despite my warm fondness for the RC church I couldn't belong to it!
Elbell I read lots mediaeval poetry and drama at university, and loved it. I still love the mystery plays!

Sorry, Ellbell, I was assuming you to be a non-believer in God because of what you said earlier about not believing in an afterlife. Like you I don't believe in judgement - as for an afterlife I used to believe utterly in one but now I think I live in hope of one. On balance I think the probability is that there is an afterlife, and if there is then I'm a universalist. Anyway, until I'm dead I won't know!

(pprobably sounds like total waffle but am too knackered to put it more eloquently!)

It's OK nearly3... I don't really know what I believe, but I sort of believe in... um... something. I like to think of Christianity as a code which I try to live by. But judgement and life-after-death are problematic for me. [confused emoticon]

I was told by my priest that if babies die before they are baptised, they go to heaven anyway...

he can say what he likes he is the instument of god god speaks throu him.

apparently.

personally i think its unecessary heirarchical bullshit.

i say as a practising catholic.

i think you should ask yourself " do i want to believe in a god - or live my life in goodness - for a god, or worship a god ..who doesn't let babies into heaven before they are baptised?"

my god is all loving - despite what numerous faiths would have us belive.

Ellbell, have you read John Spong?