Please or to access all these features

Add post

Watch this thread

Save thread

Start a new thread

Flip thread

Hide thread

My feed

Active Unanswered threads

Getting started FAQ's

Unanswered threads Acronyms Talk guidelines

Hide shortcut buttons

Talk

Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

Flip

1 2

Original poster

creation vs evolution

50 replies

TheFourthLobster · 24/12/2014 20:16

Genuinely curious here about what people with faith believe about creation and evolution.
If you start with the belief that Adam and Eve were created then are you also believing that evolution doesn't happen? If you accept evolution does happen, then how does this fit with your faith?
Or where A&E created and is evolution something that has happened since?

OP posts:

niminypiminy · 24/12/2014 22:23

Yawn.

headinhands · 24/12/2014 22:28

Although most Christians on Mumsnet accept the validity of evolution it appears not to be as widespread among believers as debate here would have you believe. My local thriving baptist for example has several links to a well known creation science website on the home page of its own site. When I was a church goer several years ago creation still seemed the preferred opinion amongst the congregation but that was about 10 years ago.

thegreenheartofmanyroundabouts · 25/12/2014 08:46

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being. What has come into being in him was life, and the life was the light of all people. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overcome it"

These are the opening words of John's gospel which will be read out in churches all over the world today, Christmas morning. The writer is trying to express in words something about Jesus and who he is. The passage goes on to say

"He was in the world, and the world came into being through him; yet the world did not know him. He came to what was his own, and his own people did not accept him. But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God, who were born, not of blood or of the will of the flesh or of the will of man, but of God."

The passage is poetry and not a science text book. In the same way Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 which are two different creation stories are myth and poetry and not part of a science text book.

I've never seen a problem with holding science and faith together. One of the most prolific theological writers in the UK today is Alister McGrath who used to be a scientist and he doesn't have a problem with it either!

Happy Christmas!

TheEnduringMoment · 25/12/2014 09:13

Both the Archbishop and Canterbury and the Pope are absolutely on board with evolution (not surprising, they're both sensible intelligent blokes). I get incredibly annoyed by people in either camp who imply that all/most Christians are/should be Creationists, when especially in the UK there is no such link. It's hugely harmful to young Christians who may be turned away from science and to young atheists who may assume that their Christian friends are idiots.

tumbletumble · 25/12/2014 09:25

Another Christian who believes in evolution here

AuntieStella · 25/12/2014 09:50

The 'Father of the Big Bang' was a Jesuit priest, honoured for the Vatican for his work. In the big Christian denominations, there really isn't a conflict.

The Biblical order of creation is essentially correct, even though written centuries before the theory of evolution was articulated

Try comparing "in the beginning was the Word' and 'what caused the Big Bang to happen', and you realise that it is once again essentially the same.

Now I would say there is more to God than being the prime mover of the universe. But in terms of creation and evolution, the only remaining question is 'what is this God/word/force that caused it all to happen?'

AMumInScotland · 26/12/2014 21:38

The majority of Christians in the UK believe in evolution, and that the stories at the start of Genesis were myths - ways of describing important truths about the world in a poetic and allegorical kind of way rather than any attempt to describe historical events.

How they square that with a religious faith varies. Personally I believe that God created a universe in which life could (and would) develop and become intelligent and self-aware. Others take more of a view that God was guiding things along.

A smaller proportion of UK Christians do believe in creationism, and find ways of dealing with the inconsistencies between that and scientific discoveries. I don't really know how other faiths view the question!

Smash1919 · 06/01/2015 09:50

Look up 'do you believe in evolution?' On youtube. A guy interviews prominent evolutionists. It's really interesting.

BackOnlyBriefly · 06/01/2015 11:22

Original Sin used to be a core belief.

madhairday · 07/01/2015 10:02

I have no issue with evolution, big bang, whatever, and most Christians I know feel the same - but most of my Christian friends tend to be of the less conservative persuasion

Cadenza1818 · 08/01/2015 21:21

I have issues with evolution and im a Christian. It just doesn't seem plausible to me.However I believe in an almighty god that can do anything. So if he deemed fit to do the world in 7 days great. If he did it in millenia of evolution great. The question is who not how.
My biggest gripe is that it is the THEORY of evolution, not fact. And that's not as a Christian I say that.
Ps i was an aethist for 23 years and studied a bit of anthropology at uni. There's very weak evidence for a lot of stuff that gets presented as fact e.g that we started life as water creatures.

BoreOfWhabylon · 09/01/2015 11:29

You might want to learn a little about the difference between Scientific Theory and "just an idea", Cadenza

rationalwiki.org/wiki/Scientific_theory

BoreOfWhabylon · 09/01/2015 11:33

And evolution is both scientfic theory and observable fact.

rationalwiki.org/wiki/Evolution

Cadenza1818 · 09/01/2015 15:07

Sorry boreofwhabylon but I disagree. But thanks for the info. I personally don't observe anything which convinces me of evolution. But I admire your faith.

BackOnlyBriefly · 09/01/2015 16:55

Cadenza, you don't have to agree for it to be true. As was pointed out some people assume that 'Theory' means the same as the everyday use when someone says "I have a theory I caught this cold from Fred". The Theory of Evolution is not a guess, but like The Theory of Gravity.

As other Christians have said on here it's pretty much accepted by Christians these days. Pretty sure the Pope was ok with it.

DadOnIce · 09/01/2015 17:06

You don't "believe in" evolution any more than you believe that gravity makes things fall, or water makes things wet, or fire burns. It just is an observable scientific fact backed up with evidence, like those other things.

You can't, admittedly, demonstrate it to a stupid person in five seconds, like you could with fire, water and gravity. But there are libraries and museums full of evidence. One afternoon should do it.

Don't fall for the "argument from personal incredulity".

AMumInScotland · 09/01/2015 17:12

From a scientific point of view, the theory of evolution through natural selection is the most consistent with the evidence available. That is why it is an accepted scientific theory. That's pretty much the definition of a sciientific theory in fact.

If people prefer to believe something else, then they can choose to do that.

But to say that it is 'unconvincing' as a piece of science is naive and arrogant, as it suggests that you are convinced that your own opinion is more important than decades of scientific study by people who have focussed on the evidence and the possible ways it could have come about.

If there was another explanation which fitted the facts better, science would have welcomed it with open arms. There isn't. That's not about 'faith', it's about the scientific method.

I'd prefer it if creationists could bring themselves to say "Actually, scientists have come up with a plausible explanation, but I personally choose to believe otherwise, despite the fact that the way God caused life to develop is really very consistent with their description"

BoreOfWhabylon · 09/01/2015 17:26

Thanks all, you've said it better than I could

headinhands · 09/01/2015 17:34

I personally don't observe anything which convinces me of evolution

Hi op, maybe you could let us know what you have observed that convinces you of creation and we'll start from there.

headinhands · 09/01/2015 17:41

Personally I believe that God created a universe in which life could (and would) develop and become intelligent and self-aware.

at what point did god put his spirit in people? seems unfair that seconds before they would have been unable to be 'human'. If there was no Adam and Eve why did Jesus need to die? (let alone why he would need to die anyway, why chose a method of redemption that would fast look the morality of bronze aged and barbaric humans?)

MardyBra · 09/01/2015 17:52

"Personally I believe that God created a universe in which life could (and would) develop and become intelligent and self-aware."

The bit I don't get is, if God is all-powerful and that, why didn't he (or she) "get it right" the first time, instead of delegating it to a process called evolution. It would have saved having to wait for all the random mutations and having to go through thousands of generations of natural selection to end up where we are now.

BackOnlyBriefly · 09/01/2015 17:55

at what point did god put his spirit in people

Now that's a good question.

MardyBra · 09/01/2015 18:02

And why did some bits of evolution go wrong if God enabled it? Like the appendix - no use whatsoever, but it can kill you if it gets infected.

headinhands · 09/01/2015 19:04

thousands of generations of natural selection

what about the millions of species that got binned off? Such a waste! Does he work for the council?

AMumInScotland · 09/01/2015 20:34

headinhands - I wouldn't talk in terms of god putting his spirit into people. But I think people became aware of the possibility of god, and capable of being in a relationship with god at the point where they became self-aware. I don't think you could have a soul without self-awareness.

Mardybra - well, if god wanted things to turn out in an exact way that was planned out, then I'd guess evolution wouldn't have been the way to go about it. Maybe if things had taken a slightly different route, 'humanity' would be living in the oceans, or be giant lizards.

Does it matter if species get 'binned off' any more that it maters that individuals die? What's wasteful about it, if they were part of a pattern for a while and then stopped?

Anyway, I'm not sure why this has to be an argument. I believe evolution happened, same as you do. I also believe that God exists, for reasons that are about faith rather than logic.

Flip

1 2