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Christians & Father Christmas

81 replies

FaithLoveandGrace · 21/12/2014 14:01

Hi all, I had an interesting chat with someone earlier this week about teaching children about Father Christmas as a Christian. They said they've never taught their children about Father Christmas as they thought once their DC found out he's not real, they'd also think Jesus is not real either.

It got me thinking, how do you teach children that what you told them about Father Christmas (or the Easter Bunny or tooth faith) is not true but that (in our opinion) what we've told them about Jesus is? I'm not entirely sure where I stand on the issue tbh. DSS believes in Father Christmas and I wouldn't tell him otherwise - that's up to his dad (my DP) and his mum. As much as I love how magical Christmas is for DSS and the other children I know, I'm not sure I'd feel comfortable lying to any biological children DP and I may have.

I'd be interested to hear others views on it.

OP posts:
educationrocks1 · 22/12/2014 11:38

"I celebrate Christmas on the 25th- a secular tradition"

And that's fine. People can celebrate Christmas in lots of different ways. Fancy someone telling you, "No, you are NOT celebrating aa a secular tradition, you're celebrating the birth of Christ".

bigbluestars · 22/12/2014 11:40

But they do say that educationrocks.

educationrocks1 · 22/12/2014 12:01

You mean Christians? I think there's a bit of confusion in how people word things. I am not originally from the U.K, and in my home country Christmas is purely a Christian celebration. Yes people have Christmas trees but it means nothing more than a nice adornment to the home. We don't have the whole Yuletide logs, presents,etc,etc.. It's a time of praying, singing in church and great feasting. When I first came to the U.K if someone said, " it's a secular tradition", I would say no, it's the celebration of Christ, because that's how it is in my home country.

After many yrs, I've understood that in the U.K, many celebrate Christmas but with a different purpose. For some it's pagan, for some it's simply a wonderful time for family to get together, and for some it's about Christ.

It is weird when you tell someone, "for me it's a secular celebration", and the answer is, " No it's not, it's Christian etc, for how can you argue about how someone else celebrates their Christmas.

Perhaps It is all in the wording, So if I said for instance, bigblue Christmas is pagan"!, you respond, "No it's not, it's purely secular!", what I mean is for ME it is pagan(not that it is iyswim)

capsium · 22/12/2014 12:49

BigBlue I was interested in you Bible quote, so looked it up. For ease of understanding I also looked up the Living Bible translation, here:

"10 Hear the word of the Lord, O Israel:

2-3 Don’t act like the people who make horoscopes and try to read their fate and future in the stars! Don’t be frightened by predictions such as theirs, for it is all a pack of lies. Their ways are futile and foolish. They cut down a tree and carve an idol; 4 they decorate it with gold and silver and fasten it securely in place with hammer and nails so that it won’t fall over. 5 And there stands their god like a helpless scarecrow in a garden! It cannot speak, and it must be carried, for it cannot walk. Don’t be afraid of such a god, for it can neither harm nor help nor do you any good." (Jeremiah 10 The Living Bible)

So there is a distinction between a Christian Christmas tree and one involved in Pagan practises. It is not Christian to make idols of trees or worship them (the tree). The tree is displayed in remembrance of Christ, it's evergreen nature symbolising eternal life for us.

I think in the context of bringing Christianity to a formerly Pagan people it can be useful to use symbolism, in what is around in the natural world and in the psychological landscape, to remember Christ. It is a way of translating Christ's message into a symbolic and ritualistic language that can be easily understood and appreciated by people.

BackOnlyBriefly · 22/12/2014 13:37

I only posted because educationrocks1 said 'Where did you learn this from' and I didn't want her thinking it was something bigbluestars had made up. I'm a bit surprised you don't all know about it.

CoolCat2014 you said "you really should do your research before butting in like that (and whatever happened to live & let live and tolerating others viewpoints and beliefs?)"

Well firstly I seem to know more about it than you do and lots of people have gone into greater detail than I have. It's a minor matter to me.

The only reason I ever looked into it is that quite regularly on threads about religion Christians will say that if atheists don't believe in Jesus they shouldn't be allowed to have Christmas.

The other time it comes up is when people say that we non-believers have contaminated and spoilt their holy day with our immoral and commercial celebration.

Both are offensive and incorrect so I looked it up.

The day has been many things down the years. It's not really owned by anyone, but the only people who really claim to own it are Christians so that's usually when it comes up.

The church moved the birthday of Jesus to the day of the existing celebration, hung a label on it and said "this is ours".

I have no problem with that as long as no one tries to say I need their permission to celebrate it.

There is also a certain faint amusement when I see people going on about the trappings of Christmas as though they were in the bible. I don't normally bring it up unless someone is making a big thing of it.

capsium · 22/12/2014 13:51

Back

Well firstly I seem to know more about it than you do and lots of people have gone into greater detail than I have.

What makes you suppose you know more?

The day has been many things down the years. It's not really owned by anyone, but the only people who really claim to own it are Christians so that's usually when it comes up.

Christians can only claim Christmas as a Christian festival because of the name. I don't suppose many would claim Yule or the Winter Solstice or any secular celebrations, on the same date as Christmas, as Christian....

And don't worry other types of celebration don't tend to spoil my holidays celebrating Christmas, as long as no one tries to force their forms of celebrating on me. Smile

BackOnlyBriefly · 22/12/2014 14:00

Christians can only claim Christmas as a Christian festival because of the name.

See now you're saying 'claim it'. Christmas is now the traditional name for it for everyone so we have to call it that. Too awkward to change it now.

Really though I don't recall you being difficult about it and as you just said your celebration isn't spoiled by the thought of others celebrating differently.

capsium · 22/12/2014 14:08

Back well I appreciate language changes but the meaning this particular word has not changed for me or many others - even for those it has changed for, will recognise the original meaning. However I cannot stop other people understanding and using language however they wish, nor would I want to.

capsium · 22/12/2014 14:14

And I heard some were calling the celebration Winterval....

meditrina · 22/12/2014 14:20

Santa Claus is based on St Nicholas, and therefore has one (at least loosely Christian) explanation.

But Father Christmas is the old pagan Green Man, and perhaps shouldn't feature in devoutly Christian families. Though given the number of Christmas trees I've seen in Churches, standard CofE wouldn't have an issue with that.

Christmas is the Christian festival. Yule (still just clinging on to use) is the older name more closely aligned with the earlier festivals. It's the obvious one to adopt, with Yuletide greetings and a Yule log etc (is it etymologically linked to Noel?)

capsium · 22/12/2014 14:35

meditrina images of the Green Man can be seen on some old churches. I put it down to a collective psychological symbolic imagination or schema. Making an artistic depiction that looks like the Green Man does not mean the person who made it worships the Green Man.

TheHoneyBadger · 22/12/2014 14:52

is it not possible that the same collective symbolic imagination created both the green man and christ? they do have a bit in common.

TheHoneyBadger · 22/12/2014 14:57

as in rather than 'pinching' pagan dates the same story rather obviously fell on the same seasonal template?

capsium · 22/12/2014 14:58

I don't know that much about the Green Man, TheHoneyBadger but I believe Christ was sent by God.

TheHoneyBadger · 22/12/2014 15:03

they're all very similar and map onto the seasons hence the parallels in festivals and timings.

it is at the least interesting, even for a believer such as yourself.

capsium · 22/12/2014 15:07

It is and it strengthens my faith, in that it illustrates a commonality in the spiritual make up of human kind.

TheHoneyBadger · 22/12/2014 15:15

yeah. i'm no longer a religious person myself but the patterns and echoes in spirituality and... mystic experiences in my own and others life through time and space point to 'something' for me. maybe 'God' is the shorthand word for that (as flawed as it is by man).

the pure heart of jesus' teachings (again as opposed to the religious interpretations and uses of them) fit well with those patterns and echoes and experiences.

what that means to me and what it means to you is no doubt very different but i hope that doesn't mean we both can't be following the way - albeit in different flocks Wink

educationrocks1 · 22/12/2014 16:07

Backonly I asked, "where did you learn this from" because I was slightly bemused at bigblues gross generalisation about how Christians celebrate Xmas. Wether some do engage in this practice is irrelevant to me, myself and hundreds of Christians I have known do not celebrate Christmas this way. You can't really tell me how I celebrate Christmas, unless you know me personally.

BackOnlyBriefly · 22/12/2014 17:48

Oh I get it now, educationrocks1. You thought bigblue was saying that you specifically and other Christians put offerings on the hearth and say it's for the anti-christ.

It was a reference to the milk and cookies for Santa and I'm fairly sure that bigbluestars did NOT say "and educationrocks1 does this".

TheHoneyBadger · 22/12/2014 23:03

the trouble is, that with the vast majority of parents indulging in the santa business it is very difficult to be the parent who doesn't let alone to be the parent who says it's not true - i'd fear a lynching! Grin

yes, yes they're supposed to bear persecution but it is an awful lot of pressure to conform dressed up as being cruel to children if you do otherwise.

capsium · 23/12/2014 08:06

TheHoneyBadger the middle ground, which is Christian and include Santa Claus at Christmas, is acknowledging the Sant Nicholas account.

I did not really have a choice regarding saying all the fantastical folklore (that which is additional to the Saint's account) happens regarding Santa because my DC was terrified at the thought of a man in red coming down our chimney. I had to promise we would not have him visit. So we told my DC we can celebrate Christmas the way we want, ie. we do not have to have Father Christmas visiting.

The Saint Nicholas account was accepted by my DC, he could appreciate how his actions were kind. So we explained that is why we (our family) choose to give gifts at Christmas. We explained other people do like to think of Santa visiting in person and not to spoil their fun but the important thing is being kind and generous like Saint Nicholas.

This was the middle ground for us. It meant our DC did not spoil any fun for another child or say Santa is all a lie - we believe the Saint Nicholas account. I said in an earlier post that I liked the thought of us all being Santa, in that we act as he did / would do. This is the real reason why all those gifts can be delivered in one night Xmas Wink.

TheHoneyBadger · 23/12/2014 08:14

my son has developed a fear of santa too interestingly.

this year he said he didn't want him to come and i said that's fine, he doesn't have to and no one can come in our home who we don't invite. i was rather relieved as i'm not keen on the whole thing.

he seems to have changed his mind in the last couple of days though.

in my house santa just buys tat - some sweets, a novelty toy, a few bath toys, that sort of thing. i am baffled by parents who get their kids xbox's and the like from 'santa' - how on earth do they think poor parents explain to their children why santa would buy some children expensive gifts and not them? it seems mindblowingly daft and selfish. mind you the whole thing is a bit off for me.

if pushed i explain to ds well 'if' santa is meant to give presents to all the children then it'd be selfish to expect big things from him when you've got a mummy who can buy you things and there are children in the world who will only get something 'if' santa gives it. the whole thing is morally dubious but i try and at least mitigate some of it with decentish lessons.

capsium · 23/12/2014 08:22

I know, Honey, it does seem daft but I think the idea originated from giving gifts in secret. People credit Santa (not themselves) with the idea of giving gifts, so they say the gifts happen at Christmas because of this. A way of not taking pride or showing off in buying expensive gifts.

It really has become something else now though, for some, all mixed up with folklore. I really don't like the "Naughty or nice?" business or naughty children getting sacks of coal, elves watching children etc...