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Philosophy/religion

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Christian but not Religious?

70 replies

Thistledew · 09/12/2014 07:27

I have heard this from a few different sources recently: "I am Christian and believe in God and Jesus but I hate religion and think it's wrong. All you need to do is read the Bible and love God".

It seems to me that one would have to perform the most tortuous mental gymnastics to arrive at this position. For a start, the dictionary definition of 'religious' is having a belief in a deity/deities and/or following a Holy text.

It seems to be that people are realising that there are a lot of negatives in religion but still want the security of having a benevolent deity caring for them. They seem to reject a 'rule based' religion - ie having to conform to any particular code of behaviour or lifestyle in order to call oneself Christian, and a dislike of traditional religious practice.

The thing that makes me uneasy about this is twofold. Firstly, it ignores the fact that there are still 'rules' to be followed: you can't just go and create your own definition of what god is or how god would behave, but have to confirm to what is an accepted definition. Same with Jesus and ideas of the afterlife and evil etc. There seems to be no awareness of how these concepts have been redefined by the Christian religion over the last 2000 years.

Secondly, is the change in emphasis from 'doing' to 'believing'. I know that Christianity has always been more about belief than action (unlike Islam, for example) but this seems to be taken to extremes. Gone are the days of your wooly Anglican priest who was happy to confess that he struggled at times with his belief in god but knew that as long as he kept up his prayer and religious reflection god would be happy with that and would still love him. No, this form of Christianity expects your belief in and love for god to be constant. The trouble with this is that it soon becomes another stick to beat people with: you have suffered misfortune and god has not answered your prayers? Must be because you don't love him enough. I had a conversation with someone who told me quite seriously, when I pointed out the famines that god has allowed to ravage Christian Ethiopia that she "couldn't be sure how committed those people were in their faith", unlike her, who as a white, middle class, landowning woman with a large family, has always been blessed with god's abundance. It just seems bizarre to me that it is seen as a positive, less harmful, more egalitarian way of doing things to set rules about how people are supposed to think, rather than just what they do. They are still rules. They are still a way of making a division between those who are doing 'the right thing' and those who are not. It still seems to walk and quack like a religion to me.

I really don't get why these people are trying to distance themselves from the idea of religion. Why not take ownership of the fact they are religious but say 'but we don't like how the old religions are doing things so we are creating a new one'.

Or have I missed something? Is it actually possible to be Christian but not religious and that this is a new and better way of doing things?

OP posts:
niminypiminy · 12/12/2014 17:57

"doesn't it concern you how many top flight clergy couldn't discern a simple yes or no"

There were 2 abstentions, if that is what you mean. Which doesn't seem like a great number to me.

Headinhands, I wrote something yesterday about how complex the issue is whether and when the church should reflect the mores of contemporary society. You're trying to make it very simplistic. Do you really want to know the answer to your questions (which will be along the lines of we have to balance between scripture, reason and tradition in making decisions), or simply to kick people's sandcastles down and run away?

capsium · 12/12/2014 18:15

How come, if the god is the same and christians are listening to god and ignoring their own preconceived ideas, how come there is such change and such disparity?

Because we are not perfect, as human beings, neither is the church, as it is made up of fallible human beings. Complete church unity has not been achieved because our cognitive understanding of God is incomplete and will be until we meet Him 'face to face'. However we can grow in faith, knowledge and understanding as we meditate on the significance of what Christ has done.

Regarding 'knowing' we can pray and ask and do what we feel is right. God will grant any prayer, which is His will and I believe it is His will that I know the right thing to do. However people can panic, have uncertainty and doubt due to their own preconceptions, hence following what God wants is a learning curve.

headinhands · 13/12/2014 08:21

kick peoples sand castles down and run away

Sand based constructions are a little foolish aren't they ;). But seriously, earlier you opined that a non believer was suffering an illusion and I tackled that with reason and further questions. You are free not to engage. I guess the point here is, if you feel your arguments are being kicked down then make them better!

headinhands · 13/12/2014 08:25

we can grow in faith, knowledge and understanding as we meditate

Christians are coming to wildly different opinions of what god wants after such meditation so it doesn't work. You have no way of knowing that what you think is right, is actually right concerning god's preferences.

headinhands · 13/12/2014 08:29

following what god wants is a learning curve

Christians who have contradictory opinions to you in terms of abortion and gay rights and feminism and so on, they have been fervently seeking god too, for years, many of them a lot longer than you. And they get more set in their opinion of what god wants the longer they are Christian regardless on the opinion. There are huge swathes of Christians talking to the same god as you, getting totally different messages about his preferences.

capsium · 13/12/2014 08:51

So be it head, my Christian Faith has not let me down so far, so I will continue in it.

As for sand castles, you are right, they are easily knocked down - my faith stands firmer than this.

headinhands · 13/12/2014 09:43

has not let me down so far

And the Christians with the contradictory versions of what god wants would say the same and feel the exact same assurance of their connection to god so to an outsider there is no way of knowing what his preferences are. And you can't say 'just trust him' because the people who are are doing so are coming to opposing views, and not just on trivial matters like what colour pants he wears.

headinhands · 13/12/2014 10:01

2 abstentions

That was the bishops wasn't it, but a quarter of clergy and a third of laity voted against it. Wouldn't you expect the figures to be overwhelmingly in favour? How come they change along with general attitudes outside of the church? Do you not agree that to an outsider it just looks like any other organisation making it up as they go along. How could one reasonably claim that these people are in daily contact with the same supernatural deity? How is he unable to communicate clear yes and no's let alone explaining his reasoning? It would seem that what they think god wants is pretty much their own opinions.

capsium · 13/12/2014 18:51

head what do you do with things that are very difficult to understand? Do you stop pursuing understanding, because there are people that understand different aspects differently, or does the mystery spur you on?

God is a BIG concept. I don't expect complete understanding in one go. It is part of why pursuing my understanding of Him is so fascinating to me...

capsium · 13/12/2014 18:54

And the writings contained in the Bible are so special. I feel a connection, across thousands of years. Phenomenal really, that this text is so readily available...

headinhands · 13/12/2014 21:47

readily available

To a woman in the UK in 2015

headinhands · 13/12/2014 21:53

Things I don't understand? If it was somthung that others had learnt and was understood well by a body of people such as mathematics then I would study that discipline. If it was a subject where there was no demonstrable human knowledge then I would have to accept that I just would have to accept not knowing for now, unless I worked towards scientific study in that field maybe? What wouldn't be satisfactory would be making something up that seemed nice for me. I want the truth and until then I wait.

headinhands · 13/12/2014 21:55

god is a BIG concept

So god is both for and against the principle of gay marriage and abortion and divorce?

capsium · 13/12/2014 22:24

Do you expect me to have all the answers head? I don't. What I know is that I am in no position to judge others, I don't have to either.

headinhands · 14/12/2014 10:22

It's not about judging others though, it's about how come there is no consensus even though so many claim to be in 24/7 contact with the same god. That would be my starting point. But I guess if you're looking at it from inside you've already decided that god is infallible so it can't be him to it has to a failing on the humans side of the equation, whereas an outsider sees it differently. I was hoping you could explain how you explain it, as I've said before I'd like to understand how I reasoned this away.

capsium · 14/12/2014 10:39

There is consensus though, with the Nicene Creed:

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed

I have already explained why there are differences, different development of knowledge and understanding. The bible talks about this ( for example,in the passage from Romans, I quoted earlier). People are individuals with different strengths and weaknesses, different preconceptions and thus there can be variations in the way faith is manifested through people.

capsium · 14/12/2014 10:48

And only you know how you reasoned your Christian Faith away head. Is is important to you to defend not hanging faith, for some reason? Because I accept you are free to choose this way of thinking.

headinhands · 14/12/2014 11:05

But people who have the sane access to the same knowledge come to different viewpoints. Contradictory. You have some believing god wants them to picket outside abortion clinics, and some that are pro choice, and some that think homosexuality is a abomination and she who vehemently support gay rights. And these people are reading the same bible and praying to the same god.

I want to understand how I explained this and all the other issues like the OT before my de conversion.

capsium · 14/12/2014 11:19

Have you read any narrative theory head? It might help you understand how people can experience narrative differently. I'm struggling to explain this to you because for me individual understanding is a given - I don't expect anything else.

HappyAgainOneDay · 14/12/2014 11:24

I'm a Christian but I go to church rarely. I would not describe myself as 'religious' though. I believe and sing along with Songs of Praise. I live a Christian life in trying to be being nice to others.

I would describe nuns as religious.

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