Very religious female muslim student - advice needed

[springydaffs]

I currently have two female muslim language students staying: one wears a hijab but ordinary/western clothes (though covered up); the other wears the full kit - not a burkha but a full-length overdress (can't remember the name) and a white hijab, with one side loose, when she goes out.

The more 'relaxed' student goes out - in fact, all the time and is never here. The more religious student never goes out and seems frightened to go out - I'm not sure if this is because of her beliefs/conditioning or if she is eg agoraphobic: she is very nervy when we go out, she shuts down entirely, becoming 'invisible'.

Her dad came with her and stayed a month, seeing her every day numerous times - he was staying in a hotel minutes from her language school. He grilled the previous host on who would be coming to the house; that host knocked the stay on the head because of the father's tight control. Student came to me because the father was assured it is a female-only household.

Her father has gone home now but she won't go out on her own. Which means she is here the entire time and wants me to take her out and pick her up if she does go out and won't be back before 7pm. I'm not up for doing this. I've been a host to foreign students for over a decade and these girls are the first muslim foreign students I have hosted.

Would it be unreasonable to suggest she doesn't wear the dress when she goes out, as this draws attention to herself, whereas a hijab is commonplace and won't stand out too much? I don't live in an area where there are many strongly observant muslims - in fact, there are none (or there may be but they're indoors?)

Sorry OP i must have you confused with someone else then. The food thing would really wind me up too but dont bother offering anything else if she doesnt finish her food. In Islam it is considered a sin to waste food which might be a useful tidbit for you to use to get her to finish off her crumpets.

she's grown up in a society and household where she was expected to 'blend into the background' and not draw attention to herself, she's been taught that 'mixing' with people of a different sex or religion or taking part in 'non-islmaic' activities is wrong and against her religion. she hasn't been brought up to be independent or self confident and the lack of interaction with other outside of the home means she has no social skills

I dont think we have enough knowledge from the OP to assume all this about this student's upbringing. She is living with a non-muslim, studying in a non-muslim country on her own, going to school with people of a different sex and there could be any number of reasons why she doesnt take part in the activities from financial to just not being interested.

Just because some muslim parents are overprotective that doesnt necessarily translate in to being abusive or controlling. Sometimes it is to do with their past experiences in their homeland or the environment they grew up in. Im expecting my second child any day now and my dad called me up this week to advise me not to walk to my gp (10 minutes from my home) for an appointment on my own in case I went in to labour in the middle of the street. He even offered to travel down from another city to go with me (an idea which horrified me and I quickly vetoed it). Is that controlling? I didnt feel abused in fact I found it comical and me and my mum had a good laugh about how clueless my dad is and that was it. Its not always coming from a dark, angry, hateful place, sometimes it is just genuine love and concern for your child. If her father's actions were really motivated by wanting 'mental and emotional control' over her I doubt he would have left her in the UK for several months on her own.

but this girl does not seem to have been exposed to a more 'modern' way of living so you do have to wonder where that influence has come from.

Why do you assume that she hasnt been exposed to a modern way of living. Because she wears religious dress and in a country where she doesnt speak the language is a bit of a homebody? She may have had a sheltered upbringing, she may just be nervous and homesick, she could be shy, she could be spoilt and entitled etc. I think if you ask her about her life OP in her home country rather then about her religion you will get more insight in to why she behaves in the way she does.

her family can afford to send daughters abroad for education (daughters, even!)

Why would it surprise you that a Muslim would want to educate their daughter if they had the means or facilities to do it? This is what I am talking about with regards to stereotypes. Do you know across the muslim world there is a growing trend towards getting girls educated in fact in many middle eastern countries the number of university graduates who are female exceeds those who are male. Number of women going in to work is also on the rise. The scholarship programmes in even conservative countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran send hundreds possibly thousands of female students abroad every year for tertiary education (my university in the UK had many Iranian female students studying STEM subjects) many of whom have guarantees of a job waiting for them back home when they complete their studies. I met two Saudi ladies last year whose PHDs in top British universities as well as there accommodation and living costs were being completely covered by the Saudi government. A friend of mine in Saudi was actually telling me that there is a growing social problem now as young, educated Saudi females are finding it increasingly difficult to find husbands who are as equally educated as themselves (social status thing) many of whom are then choosing not to get married or delaying it. I know the more sensationalist stories about nut job groups like Boko Haram burning down schools play more in to the stereotypes that the media like to feed us but those attitudes are certainly not prevalent across the muslim world especially amongst more urban, modern, educated populations regardless of whether they are religious or 'westernised' or even both.

To be honest reading some of the things you have to say about Muslim women OP, is really disheartening and plays up to stereotypes. Why don't you just stop having Muslim students if you have issues with them whether that be halal food or someone's refusal to go out? Would most likely be easier for you and for Muslim females in your home who probably feel your disapproval.

Muslims cultures are hardly all the same, though. Is Shy girl from one of the Wa'Hadi countries, OP?

If she were Turkish or Indonesian, i think you'd have a completely different lodger.

I dont think we have enough knowledge from the OP to assume all this about this student's upbringing
no, we don't have any knowledge of the girls's upbringing so actually we can pretty much assume anything from the knowledge of our own experiences to try and gain insight - which is what you go on to do by saying She may have had a sheltered upbringing,she may just be nervous and homesick, she could be shy, she could be spoilt and entitled....so it's ok to make one type of assumption but not another?

Why do you assume that she hasnt been exposed to a modern way of living. Because she wears religious dress and in a country where she doesnt speak the language is a bit of a homebody?
i do believe i answered that already in my first post when i wrote her choice of attire is NOT the problem here, it's the mental conditioning and clash of cultures and her inability to handle that which is causing problems for her
The OP herself says the girl seems frightened to go out, she is very nervy when we go out, she shuts down entirely, becoming 'invisible' Those are not the behaviours of a well-adjusted person. so my assumption is entirely reasonable.

Just because some muslim parents are overprotective that doesnt necessarily translate in to being abusive or controlling
no it doesn't, however, there is a very fine line between the two and if you read the 3rd paragraph of the OP where the girls father grilled the previous host on who would be coming to the house..Student came to me because the father was assured it is a female-only household, it gives you an insight into whether the father is merely 'overprotective' or actually being 'controlling'.

If her father's actions were really motivated by wanting 'mental and emotional control' over her I doubt he would have left her in the UK for several months on her own
In the traditionally more patriarchal cultures and societies the men hardly ever perceive their actions as being mentally and emotionally controlling, they're conditioned to perceive it as being 'protective' and 'responsible' for the women. As any woman who has experienced emotional/mental/domestic abuse will tell you - you don't need to be physically close to the abuser for them to have control over your actions or thought processes. It's obvious her father values her education but only on his terms. hence why he chose a 'female only household' because god forbid his daughter have any contact with males outside of the classroom who could lead her into temptation - i think it's pretty safe to assume that he would not allow her to have a boyfriend or even male friends.

the example you give about your father is irrelevant because you have already stated that you had a more liberal upbringing - so of course we wouldn't assume that he was being 'controlling' by offering to come down

i understand that you don't like these stereotypes being brought up and discussed but the fact is they are,unfortunately,a very common way of life for millions of women around the world and even here in the uk. By ignoring them or trying to deny their existence you are doing a massive disservice to the women who are suffering from that kind of oppression.

Maybe she is just a home body?

Why should she have to live as an English person???

Maybe she doesn't have any interest in bowling/cinema/go karting.

I would not suggest that she dresses in a different way!

You aren't coming across as very welcoming to those who don't readily live as an English person to be honest.

Friday is the main day religion wise.

Why do you think halal meat is so good? Its just the same as other meat but the animal is killed slightly different. Makes no difference to the taste/quality.

Dear me. Can't get it wrong for getting it right (or however that saying goes). I like halal meat because it tastes better, ok? That's it. I don't know why, it just does. Sheesh.

I have hosted hundreds of students and it makes no difference what country they come from, only that my home is a safe and welcoming place (for us all!) and, to that end, to manage students who can be more challenging, usually for a myriad reasons, as individuals differ regardless what country or culture they come from. I have already covered why students (generally) conform to british ways while they are here - this is the deal, clearly advertised by the school, when they sign up to living with a british host family. It is my job to uphold that. I have today suggested to them they think of an arabic custom I could perhaps follow while they are here 'as you are having to live as a british person for the duration, perhaps I could do something that is arabic'. They liked the idea and are having a think.

I wouldn't be posting here for advice, or spreading the net wide amongst my friends and contacts for advice, if I 'didn't like muslims' - I'm trying to get it right, don't want to offend or, horror, hurt them. I have the unenviable task of balancing many strands here, there are a number of layers if students are 1. in a different country having to adjust to different customs 2. completely out of their comfort zone, at least initially 3. teenagers (!) 4. having to learn new ways to communicate, make their needs (and wants) known 5. used to servants and think I'm a servant, or at least are confused about my role - and on top of all that 4. following strict rules from not only another culture but another religion.

Give me a break ffs. I'm doing my best here.

so it's ok to make one type of assumption but not another?

I didnt make any assumptions. The last bit of that section you quoted I advised the OP to actually ask the girl about her life back in her home country to gain some insight in to her behaviour. I just offered a range of alternatives to the 'poor oppressed muslim girl' explanation that had been thoroughly explored and examined by other posters.

grilled the previous host on who would be coming to the house..Student came to me because the father was assured it is a female-only household

I still dont think that gives us enough information to conclude the father is controlling. He wants to make sure the environment that his daughter will be in will be as safe as possible and for him that means a female only environment. When students first move out to university many parents would accompany them and do a similar sort of check of the accommodation they are staying in, looking at the facilities, the people they will be sharing a room with, perhaps also speaking to the landlord if they are renting privately. Doesnt mean they are controlling. Practically speaking he may just be concerned about his daughter's comfort. If you wear a headscarf or other kind of religious dress then you cant really relax if you are staying in mixed accommodation as an unrelated male could walk in at any time. This means you cant really remove these items of clothing unless you are in private or at least must always keep them to hand just in case. If you are staying in a female only environment you can walk about freely without your headscarf and be less reserved about how you dress in communal areas in the home because everyone your living with is female.

the girl seems frightened to go out, she is very nervy when we go out, she shuts down entirely, becoming 'invisible' Those are not the behaviours of a well-adjusted person. so my assumption is entirely reasonable.

It could be correct or it could be wrong. Even if you are correct that she hasnt been taught to be independent it is not abusive or a crime to not raise your child to have the self confidence to handle themselves in an unfamiliar situation with ease. It might be shortsighted or a bit of a disservice to them to not give them those skills but many people live quite sheltered lives when they are with their parents and find it hard to cope out in the real world. Remember she is just 18 and has a lot to learn. Her lack of friends and inability to speak the language may be exacerbating her difficulties and the OP might find once she has made a few friends that she starts to come out of her shell. Think of how you would feel if you moved to a new area where you didnt know anyone and were still not sure how to get around. Would you be out and about everyday or would you prefer to limit your outings until you a) learned your way around the local area or b) made a few friends that would give you a reason to go out and socialise.

i understand that you don't like these stereotypes being brought up and discussed

I have no problem with discussing issues of abuse within the muslim community when they are genuine and self evident. What I am uncomfortable with is people jumping to conclusions based on very little information that perpetuate stereotypes of the 'poor, oppressed muslim woman' and the 'controlling, abusive muslim man'. It makes me uncomfortable that the faith/belief of muslim women is almost not taken as seriously as a mans to the extent that any religious action that a muslim woman does it is assumed that its because she is forced in to it rather then her making a conscious choice of her own. I have had people make assumptions about me - that I was forced to wear a headscarf (actually my parents didnt want me to wear it as they thought I was too young at the time), that I had an arranged marriage (nope introduced my dh to my parents), I even had one colleague ask me this year if I was forced to fast during ramadhan . I did not have a liberal upbringing far from it in fact. I would say my parents are very conservative, religious muslims (they certainly wouldn't approve of boyfriends in both senses of the word which seems to be the benchmark here) however they are open-minded, trust their children and ultimately want the best for them. Many of the things you describe in your post I can relate to from my early childhood (though not as bad) but the turning point came when I was a teenager and started to learn about the religion for myself. So when I was told I couldnt do x, y or z because it is unislamic I could question it and say what is your evidence for that or provide alternative religious viewpoints based on my own research. It was by turning to Islamic sources that I found I could win more freedom as I was able to separate the cultural practice from the religion which I often found were much more restrictive and unfair then actual Islamic teachings.

It is true that there are some muslim women who are abused, who do have very little control of their lives and who are oppressed but that is just one part of the picture which is increasingly becoming the only part that people want to see. It is perfectly possible to be outspoken against the suffering of these women and at the same time object to lazy stereotypes about muslim women - stereotypes that I unfortunately come across quite often.

You asked for advice, you come across as quite unfriendly in some ways. Sorry. Halal meat does not taste any better or worse than the regular stuff you get anywhere else. It also doesn't taste any different to kosher meat. Its all in your mind I'm afraid.

British people have vastly different ways of life, some drink alcohol, some don't. Some go bowling, some read books. Some have lots of friends, some have none. Etc, etc. I am sure there are plenty British people living in a similar way to the girl in question. I think actually you don't want them to have a go at experiencing 'British life' (whatever that is), you just want them to conform to what you think is normal and not be a pain to you and under your feet. Sorry!

Sorry OP I keep putting up long posts on your thread . For what its worth I do sympathise. You are in a difficult position having to live with people from a completely different culture and who also cant express themselves fluently in English. I couldnt do it. Find out if there are any Arab community groups in your area and perhaps point the student in that direction. Roughly where in the country are you, in the South or North? If you pm me I could possibly suggest some groups if I know your area (though if your a Northerner I wont be any help Im afraid).

You don't sound sorry to me, green. You may be confusing unfriendly with boundaried. A fair percentage of students have no intention of respecting a host or a host's home - or, indeed, embracing the culture of the host's country - and only go for the option of staying with a host because it's cheaper. They want the language and nothing else and don't mind making that clear. This can be deeply offensive if they have chosen to live in our homes, regardless what culture or country or religion they come from.

I beg to differ about halal meat but there we are. It may be the only time I have bought meat from a butcher and perhaps that's the difference. I shall try a butcher on my high street, instead of schlepping across town, and perhaps it'll be a revelation and I can save on all that petrol. And buy some good pork.

I've made enquiries about arab community groups, peaceful, but they only seem to meet during the day and the students are 9-5 at school. I've a few irons in the fire which are taking a while to come to fruition. Meanwhile, we've had a good day today, me and quiet student. Getting to know one another much better

When students first move out to university many parents would accompany them and do a similar sort of check of the accommodation they are staying in, a check yes, they would not be dictating where and with whom they could live.

Think of how you would feel if you moved to a new area where you didnt know anyone and were still not sure how to get around I've done that and even back then i wasn't afraid of walking outside to go shopping or even to the park etc on my own, and yes my upbringing had been very sheltered.

What I am uncomfortable with is people jumping to conclusions...It is perfectly possible to be outspoken against the suffering of these women and at the same time object to lazy stereotypes about muslim women
i didn't give the OP a conclusion, i gave her my insight based on the information she gave and my own experiences - both personal and from my volunteer work with the abused women....and my assumption is a perfectly valid opinion. You can't be 'outspoken' about their suffering without first acknowledging that those stereotypes DO still exist in day to day life for thousands of women.

I have no problem with discussing issues of abuse within the muslim community when they are genuine and self evident
and therein lies the problem. the only time you are prepared to admit and talk about the stereotypes is when a woman has turned up bruised, battered or dead....and to me THAT is not acceptable. i've come across this attitude from many muslims, that it's not ok to mention stereotypes or use them as a starting point to analyse a situation because it conflicts with your pride and the image you want to portray. well the reality is that both stereotypical and non-stereotypical cases exist and BOTH need to be portrayed.

something else you seem to have forgotten....the other girl living with the op is also a practicing muslim yet she is almost the complete opposite of this girl....so it's not like we're ONLY acknowledging the stereotype!

I beg to differ about halal meat but there we are. It may be the only time I have bought meat from a butcher and perhaps that's the difference. I shall try a butcher on my high street, instead of schlepping across town, and perhaps it'll be a revelation and I can save on all that petrol. And buy some good pork.

You sound delightful. Yes, you go right ahead and buy your pork.

I have no insight OP, but it sounds like you're trying to tread a very fine line between offering support to these students while also maintaining ground rules; very much like being a house mistress in boarding school, but in your own house. I think you do sound delightful, and I'm not being sarcastic.

If you do an exchange program it's part of the experience to live like someone from that country, it's not the OP forcing her ideals on the student. Of course allowances need to be made for students' beliefs, but I don't see the OP making reference to the student being offended at her offering up bacon sarnies at breakfast. If the OP expects under the terms of the agreement with the college that her house is empty of students between 9-5 then I can see why she's becoming resentful of the lodger that is deliberately ignoring these rules, as well as turning her nose up at perfectly acceptable food and moping around the house. She's also making polite offers to help with the student's general malaise and it's going nowhere. Patience of a saint.

Or a mug. The fine line you refer to Craic is, in reality, almost impossible a lot of the time, which can be very stressful (definition of stress: trying to do the impossible). It would be a much more rewarding venture if the language schools valued what we do. But I've hosted some lovely people, all ages. Over the summer I hosted a great student - a young french guy who lived with his girlfriend when at home in paris and was fully domesticated and understood my role perfectly. Such dream students are of course a huge delight but rare these days, not least because students are presenting as more and more entitled - it is a noticeable shift over the decade+ I have been hosting. Though most do their best, including the student I have asked for advice about (crumpets/marmalade notwithstanding), and hosting can be very rewarding.

Thank you, though, Craic, for recognising the toil that is often involved in this. And thanks, too, for the chance to give this an airing and for the great advice offered which has given me a good perspective on what may be going on with the quiet student. Experience has taught me to stick closely to my remit but it is good to flesh out the emotional/psychological landscape of students from vastly different cultures who may be struggling to adjust (in perhaps distorted ways..), whether or not it's my place to intervene - it usually isn't but I can nudge a bit here or there while gauging what necessitates direct action (also rare).

For what it s worth it sounds like the dad is going to create a child and young adult with mental health difficulties, by painting a picture of a threatening, dangerous and immoral outside world. You get parents like that in all cultures, but n this case religion is an ingredient in alienating the child from its surroundings. I actually had a friend with a similar parental control issue when I was growing up. I was one of a very few people approved by her parents . Other s were " vulgar, mature, over confident " . She became more and more withdrawn and I was saddened but not supposed to hear she now still lives with her parents ( she s in her 40s).

Oops that should be " not surprised to hear".

My children had foreign further education and initially stayed with host families till they settled in and found the area they wanted to live in independently. Some of whats being said here I understand but other things have left me feeling very down hearted. Its a mixed bag really. There's quite a few snide references/pre-conceived ideas going on whilst others parts of it are good and I imagine the girl and her family are capable of the same. Hopefully though at the end of it all each will have different notions going on about a lot :)

My children would have been the gadabout type because thats the way they are, they also had previous UK exposure. My nieces who are currently at University in the Uk would be the gadabout type because they're outgoing girls (and practising Muslims), but their wee school friend who's there also would be like the quiet girl in the OP. Its just the way she is. Maybe the quiet girl in the OP is just horribly homesick and too much is being made of other things.

The girl with my niece's isn't downtrodden and like my nieces is studying for a career that is usually male dominated world wide. My other niece also has a PH'd in the same subject and Im going to assume the it was just tongue in cheek when the Op said about families being able to educate kids abroad - 'girls even'. I don't know a family that isn't hungry for their daughters to be educated, even at great private expense, because the days of scholarships for all are over given the education now available in their home countries and the chances are that if a youngster is studying abroad - their parents are covering the cost. Most of them are not loaded - they just make sacrifices.

And just as as point of interest the girls in my family have the following careers:-

2 Doctors
2 Teachers
2 Bank Managers
3 Geologists, including one with a PHd and the rest with a Masters.
4 Business women who run very successful businesses and are all educated to Masters Level in Business.
2 University Lecturers, one with a PHd in Chemistry, and the other with one in Physics.
1 high ranking Government official in her chosen field.
1 SAS trained bodyguard to a VVIP

Re would it be unreasonable to suggest she doesn't wear her Abaya when she goes out? Yes, it would be. I do however understand why you are thinking the way you are.

The Marmalade, maybe she's tried it and didn't like it. There's plenty in the shops in this part of the world to chose from so I would just give the Strawberry Jam because its also a British thing and there must be many a house that doesn't bother with Marmalade so its not really a 'must try'.

Not being allowed in the house between 9am-5pm. This is one I will never understand and wouldn't have stood for it for my children, but luckily I never had to. They are not criminals or deviants and would have been Ok left alone in someones home. I would imagine this girls the same, but maybe because she prefers to be at home, and for that reason only - perhaps a move to another family who allows the students to be at home during the day would be better for her.

Friday is the Islamic equivalent of the Sabbath.

How to help the student settle in? Maybe get in touch with the nearest large university and see if they have a Students Association from her home country and get her hooked up with them. They have outings etc and it may just be that she finds herself a pal to go places with, or visit.

I hope this has been of some help to you. :)

There are Muslims and there are Muslims and a lot depends on the culture rather than religion.

I worked at a college in Birmingham with British born and bread Muslims some of whom were not allowed to travel on the bus without a relative or sometimes at all so she may think you driving her is part of the deal because you must (in her mind) know she can't get on the bus.

Friday evening prayers are the main prayers, sort of like Sunday morning in a church, if you don't go to other services then that is the one you go to.

Could you contact the mosque? Maybe ask if a young woman or group would meet with her for coffee?

Mosques are not just places of worship they often have classrooms and catering facilities and a library.

If you are in an area with few Muslims the mosque will often offer more facilities.

This is one I will never understand and wouldn't have stood for it for my children,

Dear me, this is precisely the attitude some of the students have - that I am essentially a servant and they get to dictate the terms.

They pay a very, very low rate for the privilege of living in someone's home. It is for me to set the terms - and, thankfully, I do it kindly. If you wouldn't 'stand' for that Tattie then you are welcome to source a facility that offers a conclusive service to your satisfaction - circa at least x5 what I am paid.

It has zero to do with deviancy. It is my home, I set the terms. I'm not running a guest house . I wish! I'd make some decent money.