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Original poster

We're always being told we should respect other people's beliefs, but....

1000 replies

Hakluyt · 03/10/2014 15:17

.....what exactly does "respect" mean in this context? I am an atheist, and I am always happy to be challenged on my lack of belief, and am frequently told that I must have no moral compass and that I have to put up and shut up when Christianity imposes itself on me. I have also been told that I must have no sense of wonder- and, on on particularly memorable occasion, that I couldn't possibly have any charitable impulses!

But if I say anything even remotely "challenging" about faith or people of faith,bi am accused of disrespect. So, what exactly does respecting other people's beliefs mean?

OP posts:

BigDorrit · 22/10/2014 23:38

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PickledInAJar · 22/10/2014 23:43

Oh dear, frustratedbaker, should we post simultaneously to show BigDorrit what a silly accusation that is!

PickledInAJar · 22/10/2014 23:45

Oh and, now I've stopped laughing, would you like to say which is the good cop? Only I thought five minutes ago you had a problem with both of us!

FrustratedBaker · 22/10/2014 23:51

:) BigDorrit I'm beginning to think that you, BoB and BigBlueStars posts are by the same person too - failure to grasp the basics, failure to answer any questions or address an argument; equal enthusiasm for insults! I didn't want to say anything, but as you've talked about making things obvious…! Wow!

Garlic: you must accept also then that the decision to believe that something came from nothing is also irrational - i.e. that there's no such thing as anything eternal?

PickledInAJar · 22/10/2014 23:51

Wait for me!

BigDorrit · 22/10/2014 23:54

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FrustratedBaker · 22/10/2014 23:54

Garlic, not sure I expressed that right - to be clear: you must accept also that a decision to believe that there is nothing eternal, and that the universe sprang into being from nothing, is also irrational?

BigDorrit · 22/10/2014 23:55

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PickledInAJar · 22/10/2014 23:57

FrustratedBaker, can you hear an annoying buzzing noise?

BigDorrit · 22/10/2014 23:58

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PickledInAJar · 22/10/2014 23:58

Ah I'm done for the night, thanks for the comical end. That did make me laugh. Goodnight all

GarlicOctopus · 22/10/2014 23:59

I think it's irrational to have any belief about the Origin of Everything. It's totally fucking impossible: if god made it all, what's the origin of god? If a spark in the dark kicked it all off, what's the origin of the spark? "Something eternal" doesn't actually mean anything more than "Can't answer that question, so I'm shelving it with a buzzword."

Like I said, though, irrationality gets us all through the days and nights. This particular version doesn't happen to meet my needs, but I'm daft enough in other ways.

BigDorrit · 22/10/2014 23:59

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BackOnlyBriefly · 23/10/2014 00:05

FrustratedBaker are you committed to believing in THIS god? The God of the bible who is also Jesus etc?

If you were just saying there must be an eternal something that set the universe in motion you'd be on firmer ground.

GarlicOctopus · 23/10/2014 00:06

Good point, Back.

FrustratedBaker · 23/10/2014 00:14

Yes, it's a choice to be committed to the Christian God.

I've already pointed out many times (though according to atheists on this thread it's flawed, untrue and provably wrong) that the only alternative to an eternal 'something' is logically impossible. So in that sense, it is on firmer ground because the alternative is impossible - as I have pointed out many, many times. I really don't need your help with that. I'm glad you have now grasped it. So Garlic, if it's a good point now, it was a good point when I made it about three days ago, and have made it since, many, many times - only to be told it was flawed, untrue and provably wrong. Repeatedly. By atheists.

FrustratedBaker · 23/10/2014 00:15

And Goodnight Pickled :)

'If god made it all, what's the origin of god? If a spark in the dark kicked it all off, what's the origin of the spark?'

Well put.

BackOnlyBriefly · 23/10/2014 01:58

No actually it would have been a good point or at least a slightly better point if you had said you believed in 'an eternal something'

But to say "ok it's not logically possible for the universe to come from nothing herefore that only leaves the possibility that this particular god is true' is ludicrous. I think you know that really.

it's not a choice between two options. The alternative options are infinite with no reason to choose between them.

It's equally likely or unlikely (you have no basis for a choice) that it be your god, allah or the easter bunny. It may just as well be the celestial teapot that created the universe or a small hamster named Derek.

You could have even have a 1000 variations on the church of Derek (just like with Christianity) since it could be a brown hamster or white one. Derek could be a kind creator, a mean one or indifferent. He might be female, he might be vegetarian.

Your argument wasn't a new one you know. I've forgotten the term for the fallacy, but you are not the first to use it or the 1001st.

We could make a list and keep it somewhere for reference and then we'd say "ah it's another 3B" and post a link. However it's more interesting - not to mention more productive - to let it play out.

Sometimes a religious person will ask an atheist 'Do you think you're going to convince people that my religion is not true" and the correct reply is "no, you are".

FrustratedBaker · 23/10/2014 04:58

'To say "ok it's not logically possible for the universe to come from nothing hereford that only leaves the possibility that this particular god is true' is ludicrous.'

That is not what I said. Read and understand. I said this.

IT'S not logically possible for the universe to come from nothing so the only alternative is eternality.

Not my God. Something eternal.

'it's not a choice between two options.' Yes it is. Something is eternal or something is not eternal.

'The alternative options are infinite' No they are not. Name. A. Single. One.

'It's equally likely or unlikely (you have no basis for a choice) that it be your god, allah or the easter bunny (all eternal - option 2). It may just as well be the celestial teapot that created the universe or a small hamster named Derek.'

These choices come in after you have decided whether you believe existence is eternal or not. Do you understand this. Why is it so hard.

Two options. Eternal or not. One is logically impossible. One is something eternal.

This is your choice .

FrustratedBaker · 23/10/2014 05:02

'Your argument wasn't a new one you know'

How can you possibly know this when you evidently do not know what the argument is?

It's not difficult. Something is eternal or something is not. Two options. You haven't forgotten the term for the fallacy. It's not a fallacy. It's a binary possibility. You couldn't put it on a list because you have not understood it - though it has been explained in the most straightforward way possible - what the argument is and even less what the point of it is.

Original poster

Hakluyt · 23/10/2014 05:32

I think the problem might be that even if I were to answer the something eternal or something not eternal question with "Yes, I think it's something eternal" - that "something eternal" would still not be God. Because the evidence for there not being a God is so much stronger than there not being a God.

So the origin of the Universe/Life is really an irrelevance in the God/not God debate.

OP posts:

nooka · 23/10/2014 05:54

Frustrated why does this matter to you so much? I get that to Christians having a creator god is very important, so creation stories and the concept of the eternity of god is important to you. But it's not at all important to atheists becasue we don't believe in a creator god. How the universe came to be is just not that important to most of us, so why should we hold a strong position / opinion/ belief?

NB I do love the poetry of the first verse of John, but it doesn't tell me what existed before the beginning any more than Big Bang theories do. Unless you think that before the beginning there was nothing (which you have said is impossible, not that that would be an issue for god of course), or that the beginning was eternal maybe? I'm not sure that makes sense either...

vdbfamily · 23/10/2014 08:21

I think one of the frustrations for Christians is being accused of being irrational for believing something unprovable and yet the point that Frustrated has made over and over again is that you either have no opinion at all (because you cannot know) or you grapple with the possibilities (which is what most people do,including scientists) I wont repeat the 2 options but there is no option that does not involve faith because none of us were there. Our world and the universe is mind-blowingly amazing and complex.The chances of it having come from nothing,for no reason, and ending up the way it did with everything positioned perfectly (sun for warmth,moon for gravity,etc)is just so spectacularly unlikely that it takes less faith IMO to believe it was designed that way then to believe it happened accidentally. And why is it so stunningly beautiful? why do we have the ability to appreciate its awesomeness? It is the peculiar things that convince me like Why do we humans see dead leaves as one of the most beautiful sights.It does not make sense in a strictly evolutionary worldview. But I digress. My short point was supposed to be that you either avoid having an opinion on the origins of the universe,or you grapple with it.Those who grapple with it either believe in a supreme being who created it,or they don't. Often those who don't accept a supreme being, consider their opinion to be more evidenced and scientific,whereas in fact, their theory is as much,if not more of a step of faith!(ie it was all a big amazing accident!)
However,I am not saying that those of you conversing here are necessarily in that category as it seems like most of you take the stand that 'we cannot know therefore we will not speculate'

bigbluestars · 23/10/2014 08:38

Many of us would agree that the universe is stunningly beautiful, intricate, complex, mind blowing,

But for many of us that does not lead to a belief in god. To me that would be undermining all these processes. The fact that some old geezer is behind the curtains pulling strings would diminish these features.

juule · 23/10/2014 08:42

Some of you might find this episode of Human Universe interesting.
Human Universe: Why Are We Here?

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