Is atheism/theism a choice?

[msrisotto]

Someone I follow on twitter posted this picture along with the line "atheism is not a choice"

I guess the point of it is that once upon a time (and to this day), unexplainable things were 'explained' as being acts of god. Now we know a lot more, science has investigated many of these things and increasingly, 'god' is out of the picture.

But i'm not sure this is the reason I don't believe in 'god'. I was indoctrinated brought up to be christian and can't remember actually believing any of it. I outed myself as atheist around the age of 12. Was that because I knew scientific theories? Or was it just because I didn't have that faith feeling? It wasn't a choice for me anyway. I just didn't believe. I have often thought how it must be reassuring to have faith of an afterlife, particularly when people close to me have died....but I don't. I can't make myself.

Is it a coincidence that scientists are generally atheist? Do they lack faith and go looking for answers in science? Or did an interest in science give them explanations that eliminated rational evidence of a god?

Is faith or lack of, a choice for you?

There's no particular incompatibility between having faith and doing science.

But for most of us , at some point we recognise the disconnect between science and faith. Many atheists are also agnostics in that they understand the unprovability either way of a god - there could be some sort of deistic 'light the blue touch paper and stand well back' entity... but if you look dispassionately at the evidence for the types of god that religions want us to believe in (omnipotent, benevolent, interventionist) .... the probability of their existencence versus rational explanations of the world dwindle.

There are of course also philosophical objections to the idea of an interventionist deity which can overturn its own rules.

Opps I think I posted on the wrong thread

Cognitive dissonance is an an internal psychodynamic between two (or more) conflicting ideas. For many religious scientists there is no conflict, therefore there is no cognitive dissonance. If you are looking at it from a non-religious POV which holds that religion and science are incompatible then the idea of religious scientists may cause you cognitive dissonance. To say that it causes the scientist cognitive dissonance is projection.

Sorry to be a pedant, but cognitive distortions and defense mechanisms are my area of expertise.

Please do talk more about cognitive dissonance - I love psychology chat :)

Just because they are so entrenched in their own beliefs that they can't see the conflict, doesn't mean that the conflict doesn't exist for them, they just rationalise it or bat it away because it is inconvenient.

What are you basing your last statement on statement on Pico and who are you talking about?

CD may be the wrong term in some cases. In other cases TBH people can simply do science and religion without really thinking as deeply as possible about the basis for each. For those who do attempt to honestly do so - how do they reconcile the difference between the scientific method, and the basic underlying truth that ye canna break the laws of physics with faith in a god who might choose to walk on water?

Antony Hewish has a good quote about the laws of physics and belief in god Errol, I'll see if I can find it. Other religious scientists have written articles, blogs and books about the relationship between religion and science including The Dawkins Delusion (I haven't read it because I haven't read The God Delusion yet).

You see I think the conflict of science and faith is a straw man. For me the conflict is the problem of suffering.

From Hewish's Wiki page:
"The ghostly presence of virtual particles

Oops, posted too soon.

"The ghostly presence of virtual particles defies rational common sense and is non intuitive for those not acquainted with physics. Religious belief in god and Christian belief......may seem strange to common sense thinking. But when the most elementary physical things behave in this way we should be prepared to accept that the deepest aspects of our existence go beyond our common sense understanding."

Hewish's page also states that he believes science and religion to be complimentary.

I am a Christian and also don't see it as a choice in so far as I didn't really seek out my faith, it was just there constantly nagging at me. I did choose, at some stage, to follow it and could have chosen to ignore it but I think the core of it would remain nagging away.

I think that is why it is probably so difficult to explain to those without faith. It remains there without that concrete evidential proof that others seek. It also doesn't mean that I don't have doubts or many unanswered questions either but it remains fundamental to me.

I don't know why God chooses to operate in this way and why I, rather than another, have this experience but my faith leads me to follow a particular path. My choice is in whether, and how, I apply this to my life.

I also give a wry smile when there are hints on MN of how those who have faith must be brainwashed. I am still the only believer in my whole extended family except my husband and children (you'd also need to ask them their thoughts as they enjoy these kinds of discussions too). I live in an environment where as in most of Northern Europe talking about your faith is taboo, not that I ever hide anything. Locally my bestest friend is a staunch atheist and is happily partnered (not married) with children. Somehow we still completely love each other and just celebrated a joint birthday party at the weekend. I am not in some Catholic or Christian ghetto, if anyone cares to look around those days are long gone. Even the Popes are calling for a New Evangelization because European culture in so deChristianized most people have no concept of the gospel - I know I didn't.

The incompatibility may depend on the kind of religion. If you believe that god set up the universe and the laws and then went away then it may be possible to study the resulting universe without involving her.

If you believe that god changes the laws of physics, chemistry, biology etc when it suits him to make a point or answer a prayer then there is no point in studying science at all.

What's the point in measuring the speed of light if you believe (as some do) that god made it faster at first so it would look as though the distant galaxies were billions of years old (when in fact he only made them 6-7 thousand years ago). That he stopped the sun from revolving round the earth (yeah I know :) ) to impress somebody.

If you believe prayer can make it rain (or stop it) then how can you take a salary researching Meteorology?

If you believe true knowledge comes from 'communing' with god then why on earth would you become a scientist in the first place. Surely he will put the right answers into your heart when they are needed.

There are certainly some people who claim to be religious and scientists, but either their church or their employer is getting short changed there.

BackOnlyBriefly you are not describing any Christian theology I am familiar with, certainly not Catholic theology.

Not true Back, some have managed to keep their employers happy, while maintaining their religious beliefs and made amazing scientific discoveries that have benefitted mankind. Some even winning a Nobel along the way.

For those of you who believe your faith is not a choice, it's just the way your god works, why does that not work for everyone? Why is it, that however hard I tried, it just didn't work for me. I never felt a thing, I went through all the motions, did everything I was supposed to, but it never made any sense.

And if it is so innate, why are there so many different religions? Surely there should just be one? Why is your religion so closely related to your place of birth and religion you were introduced to?

Lookingforfocus, I'm surprised you've managed to get by without noticing the other versions of Christianity, but don't take my word for it - ask around. There are all kind of Christians right here on MN. Not to mention a few hundred other religions that are not Christianity, but are equally as valid.

Some claim that god intervenes to help people and answers prayers and some of them even claim to be Catholic.

Wine, here are my answers to your questions.
Why does that not work for everyone? I don't know. I have wondered about it though.
Why is it....it just didn't work for me? It wasn't a choice for me. Maybe it isn't a choice for you. I'm sorry if you feel you wasted your time or felt bad because you don't believe.

Why are there so many different religions? Social anthropology can help you there. It a mixture of culture, climate and all manner of strange quirks. It's really interesting.
Surely there should just be one. There seems to be human morality and ritual that is similar in religions and cultures. So they do have things in common.

Why is your religion related to place of birth...religion you were introduced to? Convenience and familiarity. And it makes my mum happy, which is nice.. She deserves it. I am under no illusions, were I born elsewhere I would be attending temple or mosque instead of church.

Backonlybriefly despite your sarcasm you are not describing my faith life or theology which is fuller and focused on love. I don't find your arguments original or compelling as a former atheist myself. I have been happy to give a point of view and so will bow out now.

I don't think ppl are brainwashed, what I said was that I don't think faith is voluntary. Which is a bit different.

Disappointing that ppl will not debate the key issue, which for me is suffering, but prefer the easy meat of the non-issue around science. But I am used to that

Beast, I read your post unthread and considered responding, but my response would have been more questions and derailed this one more than it already has been.

I think the topic of religion and suffering is wide and sensitive. Perhaps it would be worthwhile giving it a thread of it's own?

The theology described by BoB is what you'll hear from Creationists - who may not be the norm here but aren't unusual in the US. Other denominations used to subscribe to such views to greater or lesser extents but have gradually accommodated the truth of greater scientific understanding - to take the obvious example pertaining to the Catholic church, Galileo.

Linking that to Dione's Hewish quote - it's not 'intuitively obvious' that the earth goes round the sun either. The fact that you or I may not fully understand particle physics etc (and come to that, particle physicists don't yet either) has absolutely no bearing whatever on whether there might be a god or not. TBH that quote doesn't bear much scrutiny ... its just 'god of the (ever decreasing) gaps'.

Anyway - yes, suffering. Its interesting that this is the issue which someone like David Attenborough highlights rather than quibbling with antievolutionists.

I was looking for his quote about parasitic worms and found it in here - which includes some frankly pathetic responses from some creationist organisation. Hopefully there's a theist here who can do better!