Shana Tova - Happy New Year!!!

[lisalisa]

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lisalisa, you put that beautifully

I've got to add that the 'unclean' is a really bad translation, it is more a spiritual cleansing than a bodily one (in Islam too).

And for whoever asked in Islam men are required to take ritual baths if they have sex or any discharge from there in any form.... not just a female thing.

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SSSandy - what you saw in the synagogue in Jerusalem sounds like Simchas Torah which celebrates coming to the end of the Torah and starting over again - the men dance with the Torahs and the kids all get sweeties - a very joyful time, although I never quite understood why it didn't coincide exactly with the new year. You have to remember that the Jewish calendar doesn't coincide with the regular calendar so although the "High Holidays" (Rosh Hashannah & Yom Kippur followed by Sukkot & Simchas Torah) always fall around September/October time they're never exactly the same day from one year to the next.

My dd & ds go to a Jewish school and of course they are doing a lot to celebrate the holidays at this time of year but they also try and teach them about all different faiths and celebrations which I think is great. My dd's favourite is the chinese new year where they all get to dress up as dragons!

Anyway, we're Jewish and are fasting tomorrow then my husband's family are all coming here to break their fast so I'm off now to prepare salmon & salads - i hate to cook while I'm fasting so I like to get everything done the day before.

Eid Mubarak and Shana Tova - wishing you all a sweet new year and well over the fast.

to LisaLisa and all other jewish Mnetters - fast well ..and a belated chag sameach and shana tova ....and eid mubarak if that is the correct phrase to the Muslim Mnetters!!

Christie re the security men outside a synagogue, I live in Germany and near dd's swimming school there is a Jewish kindergarten. It has two policemen patrolling outside and a high wire fence with video cameras, a solid concrete gate with mirrors, videos and a revolving door which looks like something a high security prison would need. I suppose the German govt just can't take any risks but I find that awful. Imagine sending your kids to a place that looks like that. I usually cross the street to avoid it, because the policemen come right up close to you when you pass and it makes me feel so uncomfortable. Find it extremely sad when you need policemen guarding a kindergarten.

Even the Jewish bookstore near us always has a police car parked in front and a policeman standing by the door. It makes me feel nervous just walking past.

Come to think of it where I learn tennis is right next to a Jewish school which is pretty much barricaded the same as the kindergarten. We have a tennis wall right near the high wired wall of the school and I once (but only once) tried getting a bit of practice in there. I was so crap at it that the balls kept flying over the wall into the school. The minute I arrived with my balls and racket, 4 policemen materialised and stood right next to the fence, so I said "hello" and felt like a real nerd trying to hit the wall with this audience. Unfortunately I rarely did hit it, my balls mostly flew over into the school and pupils and policemen kept biffing them back to me which was nice. I apologised when I left and thought, well imagine I'd hit a child on the head or something. Stupid place to set up the tennis wall really.

A couple of vans arrived to deliver school lunches and the policemen have to go out through the school gate with a machine gun in their arms. Lock the school gate behind them, open a second gate, let the caterer in. Lock it behind him, open the school gate again. It's really high security there. Wonder how this affects the kids.

fuzzy. The Muslim woman in question, like many Christians and Jews, observes the main religious festivals. I know of many Muslims who do not pray or eat Halal, yet who will describe themselves as Muslims. Equally, Christians who admit to salivating about the thing that they have 'given up' for Lent.

Religious identity, IME,is often as much about culture and traditions as it is about the religion itself, IYSWIM.

lisalisa. Please accept my apologies re: orthodox rabbis and men and shaking hands with women. I stand corrected.

SSSandy. My FIL regularly takes his turn to act as 'security' outside the synagogue during services.

There was a sad but interesting article recently in the (London) Evening Standard about the increase in anti-semitic attacks on Jews in London.

What stood out was that the recent attacks had been carried out by non-'whites' ie. not the usual neo-nazi NF mob.

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Re: The religion and cultural identity thing.

I think it is a good thing that people who, while not necessarily following all of the 'religious stuff' still feel themselves to be part of a religion. I believe that enough of the basic 'religious' teachings can filter through to the 'cultural' to make people behave in a better way. This, IMHO, is what is sadly lacking in 'Christian' societies of today.

The Ten Commandments are such a fantastic blue-print for a calm and happy society. If we (of all faiths) lived by the 'Thou Shalt Nots' ours would be a peaceful world.

Sadly, the 21st C does it's best to prevent this.

'Thou Shalt Not Covet' would put the worldwide advertising industry out of business, for example.

bubble, as a Christian myself it really saddens me to see my faith being eradicated from our culture. It comes back to the Noah's Ark thing on CBeebies - no mention of God - or on the Tweenies Jesus is a 'very special baby'. Because so few people attend church, families are ill-equipped to pass on any notion of what Christianity is about, and those Christians who do get heard tend to be on the extremes, and so it is assumed that is how we all believe and act. To be a Christian in this country is no longer 'normal'.

I was reading recently about a CofE school which has a Muslim headmistress. Most of the pupils are from minority faiths. The interview with her explained how daily worship in the school as manily Christian but inclusive so that everyone coudl join in. In particular she made the point that after 7/7 the worship became a way of understanding and reconciliation. Because state schools have no understanding or will as to how to handle matters of faith, pupils there often become more polarised in their outlook. It's not hard to see that if our society is perceived as Godless then someone will seek to fill the void with fundamentalism.

I'd like to ask those of you from other faiths whether you would object to openly Christian material on children's television around the time of our festivals, with the same for your faiths too, of course.

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Of course not, nearlythree!

I'd like to see anything that makes people think beyond the usual "Am I thin enough? What phone should I have? Am I 'better' than him/her" crap.

The world has become a 'Godless' place. And God is God to all religions. Call him what you will.

Noah, as the story goes, built an ark to escape a world that God found so immoral, he chose to flood.

I look at the world around me today and I wonder how much lower most of us can sink. If I were God I think I'd be reaching for the taps now. Hosepipe ban or not.

And when I see the Chriatian Evangelists and the 'Mad Mullahs' and the Orthodox Jews spouting against 'the others' I often think that they, although they would never admit it, are shouting for the same cause.

Lisalisa - I gather you are more orthodox than we are (my kids are all to familiar with CBeebies & Nick Jr for starters! ). To be honest, although we go to an orthodox shul I've never really thought of myself as Orthodox. If we were in America (where I'm from) we would probably be conservative but there isn't the same choice here. Are you in London? If so, they don't go to the same school.

I'm glad you had an easy fast. I don't like fasting and always find it really difficult. The worst time of the day for me is making the kid's dinner by which time I usually have a terrible headache and know I still have several hours to go. But the whole family gathered here to break their fast last night and I enoyed that.

Hi, I've just read this really interesting thread!
I work in a school library and I've made a big bright wall display about Ramadan and Rosh Hashanah just as you come into the library. I've really enjoyed doing it and it's made me think how important it is to just understand and respect the different faiths that mean so much to us. In the middle of the display I've put up a Psalm as they are used by both faiths (and Christians) and I've put up the blessing to the kids - 'May you be written down for a good year'.

I am a christian myself and where we used to live the church as brilliant at understanding what they called the 'jewish roots' of Christianity so we went to various festivals. I had a Jewish friend (not particularly observant but it was in her heart IFSWIM!) who said that I went to more Jewish things than she did! I always really enjoyed learning more about how Jews intrepret the scriptures because it helps me to understand them too.

So shana tova everyone!

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Bubble99 - I wholeheartedly agree with your last couple of posts.
I do find it sad that there is a spiritual void in society today. I don't necessarily think that everyone should be religious and go to Mosque, Church or wherever but just to be more 'moral', I suppose.

Nearlythree - I don't know any Muslims who would object to more Christian material on tv around times of celebrations etc (or generally even!).
I don't know where the idea that ethnic minorities are always offended by such things comes from as they are definitely not.
When I was 5, I played Mary in our school nativity and my parents thought it was amusing rather than offensive (they are very devout Muslims).
I often go to playgroups that are run in churches and no one is offended when the last song is a Christian one thanking God for various things.

Bubble99 I completely agree with you. Went onto this post because curious about Ramadan but we all seem to have a lot in common (I'm a Christian)

lisalisa - sorry, I don't usually mind nosy questions but I'm always a little wary on MN of saying something that might actually identify me. I do occassionally post about personal problems and would hate someone in RL to know. So don't feel bad for asking....but I'm not going to answer!

I think the issue about more Christian material on TV is that it woulnd't necessarily be balanced by similar material from other faiths. Nearlythree says "of course" but many times I feel the UK, as a whole, acts as if there is an underlying assumption that everyone is Christian. (MN makees a refreshing change from that of course!) I can't tell you the number of times I've had this conversation:

-So what are you doing for Christmas?
-Oh, we don't celebrate Christmas. We're Jewish, we celebrate Chanukah at this time of year.
-But you still have a tree don't you?
-No, we don't celebrate Christmas.
-But what will your kids think? Don't they feel left out?
-No, they understand that we don't celebrate Christmas, we have our own celebrations.
-Oh. (usually walks away at this point looking slightly puzzled and disbelieving)

Sugarmagnolia - I just used to get 'oh you probably don't celebrate Christmas. What do you do on Christmas day then??'

I have never met any Christians.
I don't know anyone who celebrates Christmas from a religious perspective. I don't know one single person in rl who goes to church.
This is a genuine question - are there many people who go to church?
I know mosques, temples and synagogues are packed out on weekly religious days but my impression is that there aren't many people who go to church (In London, anyway)

Actually, the churches around here looked pretty packed on a Sunday.

sugarmagnolia - I think it is understandable that most people assume they are talking to someone from a Christian background (not the same thing as being a Christian) when they talk to someone in this country who is white (big assumption there - hope I haven't offended you). I think the last census said that 70% of people claim to be Christian. Of course, many are only nominal Christians and celebrate Christmas without really giving thought to the meaning of it. And many atheists (like my cousin and her family) celebrate the secular side of Christmas as it is a tradition they have grown up with. So for many people Christmas has little or no religious meaning, and it is hard for them to understand why someone like yourself, who has a faith that matters to you, doesn't just do the 'fun' parts. Incidentally, the tree has no Christian significance at all - it is a Pagan symbol that has been co-opted into Christianity.

I think that if the BBC took religious broadcasting seriously then it would be even-handed. The problem is it patronises all of us who believe, so we end up with anodyne rubbish like the Heaven and Earth Show or the platitudinous Songs Of Praise - religion lite, if you like. (And Judaism probably gets the worse treatment of all religions) The real danger is that because there is a dearth of decent religious broadcasting, the fanatics are moving in on the digital channels - certainly there are many 'Christian' channels now broadcasting in this country whose right-wing agenda I find offensive and disturbing.

wintersun - London has proportionately more Christians than anywhere else, and teh congregations are growing at the fastest rate. This si because of immigration from Eastern Europe, and especially Africa and the West Indies. Black churches are growing whereas others are declining.

Where I live in a small village the churches are well-attended - we have a mix of CofE, Catholic and Baptist. I have just left the CofE and am going to the Baptist church, but only until I find a church that reflects our beliefs a bit better. A lot of Christians are leaving the Church (esp. the CofE) because they no longer agree with what it stands for, but they are still Christian. HTH

Yes, you're right about the religious broadcasting. There will never be much money spent on it.
During Ramadan, the bbc used to broadcast a few programmes. I don't know if they are this year or not as I tend to turn to the digital channels.
I don't remember them being that great and they were on at a ridiculous time anyway.
I think ch4(?) did a series called Sharia TV which wasn't great either.
I do think there needs to be more to promote understanding.
I actually think Tesco stores in London (don't know about anywhere else)often do a good job in bringing awareness of faith celebrations. They always market and advertise around a celebration and you often see 'Happy Diwali' etc signs.
Yes, I know its a marketing ploy and ideally that shouldn't be the way people recognise celebrations of other religions but it does promote awareness and make people of other faiths feel integrated into general society.
Lets face it, most people tend to shop there.