Do you feel it is important to share your views on faith or atheism? Part 2

[headinhands]

My goodness we like arguing don't we :)

you don't know that the dead cannot how faith

Neither do you to be fair, but sticking to logical discourse I have no reason to think that a dead person can think anything. Their brain starts to decompose very quickly. You only have to know people who have brain damage to see how vital a working brain is for adequate cognition.

And by adequate I mean a level of local decision making of your average adult. I don't mean adequate to suggest that people without perfect cognition are inferior and worth less but you get the gist.

head the brain is not needed for spiritual awareness or spiritual consciousness. The spirit exists non corporally.

What? People would be terrified. They'd think it was some kind of uprising Zombie apocalypse. Not to mention the effect it could have on those people's families...

Yeah, you're so right, that would just make no sense. What would the people do? What if their spouses had moved on or something. In reality it just wouldn't work would it. Logically speaking, while it sounds all wonderful it would actually cause big problems for all involved. And for what good? They'd have to die all over again anyway. What if they had died from a genetic illness that had caused lifelong suffering, they'd have to go through it all again! Yeah, it's a patently nonsensical idea.

*Matthew
Chapter 27

51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[e] went into the holy city and appeared to many people.*

These people, in the Bible, were prepared though, through prophesy. If it was accepted that this could happen people might receive it better. Many would have feared also though.

So this thing Jesus said about raising people from the dead, that'll only happen if it's been prophesied about in the bible and the person knows this before they die that they'll be brought back to life on earth type thing? But the healing from sickness doesn't have that proviso? Does it? Gosh it's quite a complicated system isn't it. So if someone has died and you want to pray for them you need to check the scriptures that the miracle was foretold and check with family that they all knew they were going to come back to life.

Raising the dead has been prophesied in the Bible:

Matthew 10:7-9King James Version (KJV)

"7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,"

However to receive, there has to be belief / faith present.

and here: (John 14)

"12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it."

So randomly raising from the dead, does not seem appropriate somehow. Without belief or faith or willingness to receive, people would not receive this (very well at all).

Added to this many Christians are very wary of faith healing and people who claim to have raised from the dead, and rightly so, because there have been unscrupulous fraudsters about. There is also the doctrine that teaches how God can use suffering in a positive way, developing perseverance and patience. So there is some complexity surrounding the issue, which would affect what people have faith for.

What did you believe, regarding miracles, head, when you were a Christian?

Also I believe believing in faith healing does not prohibit use of mainstream medicine at all. Some do, with heartbreaking consequence.

I believe if someone is properly healed there is no need for medicine and this will be shown to be true (probably at their next check up). Taking the medicine (which only controls symptoms after all) does not prevent faith healing taking place IMO.

^so I would not tell people it goes against God to take medicine, not at all.

Just had to make this clear, because people have jumped on this in the past, with regard to faith healing.

(which only controls symptoms after all)

I should have also mentioned modern medicine supporting the immune system as with anti biotics, as well, but often it merely controls symptoms, not fully heals, all by itself.

Sorry to go on but I think it important to point these things out. This is a complex and controversial area of Christian belief. It is also one that can make people very vulnerable to the unscrupulous.

So you can give freely, in faith, in that it is a free gift, there is no charge for it.

However people have to be willing to receive, by believing, having faith.

There are all sorts of reasons they might not be willing to receive, or think this is the right thing, or not believe, or have faith for raising from the dead or healing. Examples such as not wanting to live any longer because of old age, or believing God views health differently to us, or believing their suffering has a purpose, or believing there death is right, at the right time, are all reasons I have heard of, regarding not wanting to receive healing or raising from the dead.

"What did you believe"

Firstly, how's this for a miracle, as I type I'm on my way to Cornwall, using dh's mobile phone connection to MNet on my iPad. We've already played 'guess the film character' and sung 'row row row your boat' in rounds and are all now quietly surfing.

I never witnessed a miracle when I was a Christian but remember them being talked about. I think I assumed that people saying they knew someone who knew someone who witnessed one that that was as good as evidence. Funny isn't it.

Have a fab time in Cornwall.