genuine question from atheist - view on Christanity and personal responsibility

[kentishgirl]

Hi - promise this isn't just Christian-baiting.

I've come to the conclusion that Christianity is a substitute for having a personal conscience or taking personal responsibility. Being a Christian is like having a 'get out of jail free card' in that you are taught God will forgive you anything. So you can do anything, as bad as you like, go and pray for forgiveness and move on, slate wiped clean, feeling great about yourself. So it doesn't matter if you do wrong. As an atheist, if I do something wrong, it's always with me, it's always on my conscience, so that makes me always try to do the right thing.
I didn't always think this way. It's the only way I can make any sense of something that happened to me at the hands of a couple of serious, committed Christians. One of them even works full time for a church. They did something terrible to me but have shown no remorse, no guilt, and made no attempt to make things right with me. I'm positive they prayed for guidance at the time and then forgiveness afterwards, and now all's good in their world, while I'm still dealing with the fall-out.
Am I really wrong in interpreting Christianity in this way? Isn't it true that it enables horrible behaviour by teaching you that if you do wrong, all you've got to do is pray for forgiveness afterwards, and you are ok, never mind the effect of what you did? Basically if God is your only judge, and forgiveness is guaranteed, it gives you permission to act like a right bastard as long as you say sorry to God afterwards? there's no personal responsibility for what you have done.

[CasualCobra]

Is this the census of the whole world that the Romans forgot to record?

[capsium]

But numbers of people believing in something says absolutely nothing for its veracity otherwise you have to assert that there is quite a bit of truth to Scientology and astrology for starters.

The veracity (anthropologically) concerns what this tells us concerning collective psyche. What part if human make up, leads us to have beliefs and the affects of these beliefs on human make up.

[headinhands]

Sorry not sure of the point you're making capsium? I get that humans have a habit towards looking for patterns.

[capsium]

The point I am making could be considered a literary one, formalist theories regard narrative as 'living'. Ever dynamic and affecting readers even physiologically (heart rate increases for example when reading something exciting). Psychologists would go further and talk about value affecting our subconscious.

I just go one step further, relating to the 'living' idea and think of narrative in terms of spirit.

[capsium]

^values. Typo.

[capsium]

There is a 'Game if Thrones' quote, which frustratingly I cannot find now, which talks about being able to live a thousand lives through books.

[capsium]

If our experiences make us who we are....

[NinjaLeprechaun]

headinhands They might not take excuses very well but they are quite happy to sit back and watch individuals spend decades visiting unspeakable acts of violence on the defenceless. That makes them a bit sick in my book. As an atheist our only hope is us. We cant trust a god to protect or punish. We need to find ways, be it education etc, of preventing crime and supporting victims.

As a polytheist, that's essentially my take on things. Except for the 'bit sick' bit - no more or less twisted than humans not stopping a lion from killing another lion's cubs, or two bears from fighting over territory.
The gods might sometimes be susceptible to flattery willing to reward loyalty or otherwise intervene for their own reasons/amusement, but in general it's up to us to make the world a better place. Once we die, it's a bit late.
(Though, as mentioned, sometimes the idea of divine punishment can make us feel 'better' about the things we can't fix.)

[capsium]

^ That should be 'Game of Thrones'. Typo.

[capsium]

Some books claim to 'haunt'....and in a way they can.

[CasualCobra]

The bible reflects the thinking and political calculations of tribe leaders at the time that the passages were written. Hence they show many of the human qualities we now recognise.

[capsium]

Cobra so at the very least the Bible teaches us about humanity. Which has got to be worth something. It also teaches us about Divinity, or depending on your beliefs human belief concerning the Divine. Which since this also forms part if the human condition, has something to tell us about our psychology.

[capsium]

So the Bible is as relevant to atheists as theists.

[capsium]

^Potentially of course....

[NinjaLeprechaun]

capsium Unless you are a humanist? Revere humanity? Can humankind replace deity

This is the basic premise behind LaVeyan Satanism. That humans have never worshiped anything other than themselves. It's atheism/humanism taken to an extreme.

Norse? Crickey, don't get me wrong I have a certain respect for the Vikings, so I should, it is very likely that my ancestors were Viking. IMO they achieved a great lot and (eventually) integrated well. But some of the practices regarding their beliefs, absolutely terrifying! They were fearsome warriors certainly.

All religion reflects the reality of our existence, whatever that is, and hopefully helps us to make the best of it. All religions, also, require sacrifice of some kind - whether of pride, or of materials, or of life.

Christianity is a religion of human sacrifice. It doesn't get much harsher than that. Most Christians choose not to focus on that part of the religion, except around Easter, but there's no getting away from the fact that it's there.
I know of modern practitioners of the Norse religion who sacrifice animals (our world is a gentler place than that of our ancestors) and as an eater of meat it would be hypocritical of me to judge them for that. I'd just as soon toss a bit of money in a wishing well - a well documented pre-Christian Northern European religious custom.

[CasualCobra]

Have I missed something? Has anyone suggested that the bible is not worth reading? Hans Christian Anderson and the Brothers Grimm also teach about humanity. And I wouldn't suggest they were ignored either.

[capsium]

Ninja in Christianity, God in the form of Christ, sacrificed Himself to Redeem humanity. And then it was done. Christ does not need to be crucified again.

[capsium]

Cobra the point being that if you do not believe in God, but rather the capacity for good in humans, slating the Bible is counterproductive. Since you would believe God was a human construct, but what does that tell you about the collective psyche?

[NinjaLeprechaun]

capsium Yes, your God provided his own sacrifice. Which was nice of him. (Although I suspect that Judas, Mary, and a handful of other people might have struggled with it. Possibly even Jesus, no matter how willing the sacrifice was...) Whether you consider Jesus the human son of God or God in human form, it's my understanding that the humanity is the main point. And, yes, in theory only one sacrifice was required; but an argument could certainly be made that martyrdom is/was a form of religious sacrifice. None of which changes the central fact of the sacrifice made.
Please understand that I'm not judging this. In fact, in an odd way, it's something that helps me to make sense of Christianity as a religion not always Christians, but that's my issue.

[CasualCobra]

The bible tells us that human anger, jealousy, benevolence and anxiety are as old as writing. However, I am as likely to believe assertions it makes about an invisible deity that only talks to certain ancient desert tribe characters, and has some very human-like qualities, as I am of Goldilocks breaking and entering the bears' house to pilfer their porridge.

[CasualCobra]

Any comment on the human sacrifice of Jephthah's daughter in Judges 11 30-39?

[NinjaLeprechaun]

Cobra As that's the Old Testament, and not directly related to the practice of Christianity, I don't personally feel it applies to my point. But I can't say how it might affect the understanding of the religion to somebody else, or how a Christian might view it.
When you compare the Old and New Testaments, it's obvious that God mellowed a lot after he became a father.

[capsium]

Cobra and Big, from a humanist perspective, the Bible accounts are just a valid as any other accounts. Or are you saying they were somehow less human? Really you cannot judge them from a morally superior stance, since they tell you something about human kind, which we all are and have to acknowledge.

[capsium]

The New Testament is Good News from the Christian perspective. Redemption is available through what Christ has done. He made the sacrifice which covers eternity.