genuine question from atheist - view on Christanity and personal responsibility

[kentishgirl]

Hi - promise this isn't just Christian-baiting.

I've come to the conclusion that Christianity is a substitute for having a personal conscience or taking personal responsibility. Being a Christian is like having a 'get out of jail free card' in that you are taught God will forgive you anything. So you can do anything, as bad as you like, go and pray for forgiveness and move on, slate wiped clean, feeling great about yourself. So it doesn't matter if you do wrong. As an atheist, if I do something wrong, it's always with me, it's always on my conscience, so that makes me always try to do the right thing.
I didn't always think this way. It's the only way I can make any sense of something that happened to me at the hands of a couple of serious, committed Christians. One of them even works full time for a church. They did something terrible to me but have shown no remorse, no guilt, and made no attempt to make things right with me. I'm positive they prayed for guidance at the time and then forgiveness afterwards, and now all's good in their world, while I'm still dealing with the fall-out.
Am I really wrong in interpreting Christianity in this way? Isn't it true that it enables horrible behaviour by teaching you that if you do wrong, all you've got to do is pray for forgiveness afterwards, and you are ok, never mind the effect of what you did? Basically if God is your only judge, and forgiveness is guaranteed, it gives you permission to act like a right bastard as long as you say sorry to God afterwards? there's no personal responsibility for what you have done.

[ProlificPenguin]

Get some new friends rather than trying to work out how other people think?

[capsium]

I think you could predict my stance on the above question - no. But how do others think?

[capsium]

Prolific asking how others think is a perfectly valid thing to do on a forum devoted to philosophy, religion and spirituality, I would have thought.

[atthestrokeoftwelve]

capsium- for what it's worth I am an athiest, but I wouldn't go so far as to call myself an antithiest. I do have an instense disregard and dislike for Abrahamic religions in particular, but other religions hold their deities in a different regard.
I lived in SE Asia for a while, and have seen Animism work as a "religion", it seems to serve well, similarly the archetypal gods of of ancient Greece, Norse etc are useful models to help daily living.

What I don't like about christianity is the patriarchial power system and resulting misogyny, the idea of sin, the duality of good and evil, and the use of religion as a shield for many to exercise corrupt power.

[headinhands]

Which leads neatly onto preventing crime...how can you with any surety predict the causes of crime?

not with any great surety yet, although things are getting better in some cases, we are developing new methods of prevention and detection. I think our biggest hope is education. We have to keep thinking and trying. Look how much the issue of domestic violence is being addressed in the UK in recent years. It wasn't that long ago that DV was seen as just 'one of those things' that people shouldn't get involved in.

[headinhands]

I don't suppose it matters too much what label people would give me. I find discussing beliefs fascinating, especially so as an ex Christian.

[bluepen]

With a little bit of faith left hih. Are you trying to lose it or grow it?

[capsium]

atthestroke Norse? Crickey, don't get me wrong I have a certain respect for the Vikings, so I should, it is very likely that my ancestors were Viking. IMO they achieved a great lot and (eventually) integrated well. But some of the practices regarding their beliefs, absolutely terrifying! They were fearsome warriors certainly.

[capsium]

I know there is a certain irony me saying that, regarding the Norse,but you can't slate the OT for being brutal and not recognise brutality in Norse beliefs and practices, can you?

[capsium]

"...new methods of detection and prevention...," sends a cold silver down my spine I am afraid.

My DC was nearly 'written off' at 3yrs, not for any crime, I hasten to add.

Thankfully, after years, we have turned things around but I would hate to think what would have happened if I had actually believed what some people said about him.

[capsium]

^shiver not silver. Typo.

[bluepen]

atthestroke. Your story is different. Quite a bit like other people's. Who have been put off christianity by the behaviour of people who are professing to be christians.

There are indeed christians who cherry pick the bible, and dont change much.
There are indeed christians who use it for cover.
And there are a very few there who are not really christians at all.


There are also people who are not real christians and use the name of christianity to justify their bad behaviour.

But by far the majority of christians are trying to do their best.

There are bad apples in any large group of anything.
Take sport and their cheaters for example.
Most people do not therefore write off everyone who does sport! That would be ludicrous.

[capsium]

atthestroke what do you think of Mary Magdalene?

[headinhands]

The thing is, it doesn't matter how many instances we have of humans not being very good at something, it's not evidence for god. I'm not an atheist because I think humans are wonderful at xyz, it's because there's no evidence for the god you tell me exists and as such we are our only hope. In the words of Carl Sagan:

^Our posturings, our imagined self-importance, the delusion that we have some privileged position in the Universe, are challenged by this point of pale light. Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity, in all this vastness, there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves.

The Earth is the only world known so far to harbor life. There is nowhere else, at least in the near future, to which our species could migrate. Visit, yes. Settle, not yet. Like it or not, for the moment the Earth is where we make our stand.

t has been said that astronomy is a humbling and character-building experience. There is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world. To me, it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another, and to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we've ever known.^

[capsium]

The big question is, 'How?', though, head. Every person has different ideas on this.

[bluepen]

On what basis did you believe then, in the first place?

[capsium]

Even if a person merely views the Bible in terms of myth and legend, it has to say something concerning the collective psyche of human kind. Especially since a lot of people still believe / take their Truth from it.

[headinhands]

Why did I used to believe? In my case I was a child but appreciate many people become Christians as adults so appreciate that the reasons people are able to believe in-spite of reality are vast.

[headinhands]

How we stop crime? We carry on with what we're doing, developing our understanding, gathering data etc. What choice do we have?

[headinhands]

But numbers of people believing in something says absolutely nothing for its veracity otherwise you have to assert that there is quite a bit of truth to Scientology and astrology for starters.

[bluepen]

Out of interest, did you realise what you were doing as a child becoming a christian?

[CasualCobra]

Why not just pray the crime away?

[capsium]

head the question of 'How?', goes deeper than that. Initially I was referring to kindness.

Do you not relate to any aspect of the Bible? Christ's birth, Mary unmarried and pregnant? Travelling on a donkey for a census? No where to stay? To me these are issues that play out, in different ways time and time again. Uncaring governments, hardship and social exclusion.

So in terms of speaking human condition, the Bible can also teach us things, regardless of belief in God. It is centuries old, but also has a timeless quality about it.

[capsium]

For what it is worth I also think we can learn much about the human condition from other writings, old a new. That does not mean I agree with all they communicate, but they still tell us something about human psyche. There is some commonality between ancient writings too.

[headinhands]

Yes I can relate to certain situations in the bible, especially the Psalms with their raw and powerful symbolism but I can also identify with certain situations in Shakespeare. I'm not sure I understand the larger point you're making?