Help me deal with my mother's anti-women priests ideas!

[pigsinmud]

I was brought up going to a C of E church with my mum, but went to a Catholic primary school. At the age of 14 I refused to go to church any more - I told her it was all rubbish which upset her, but I felt she refused to take my beliefs into account. I am now an atheist - I think!

Anyway, my mum stopped going to church when I was about 18 - so 23 years ago. About 5 years ago she started going to the C of E church again, but stopped because she didn't like women taking the service. She swapped to the local RC church that my primary school was linked to and now has decided to be baptised a Catholic. It is mainly because they don't have female priests - she thinks it's wrong, but can't give me an answer as to why she thinks it is wrong. Plus, the fact that there a lot of people going who she knows from when I was at school.

I can't deal with the fact she is so opposed to female priests. She even went as far to say that if I was to become a vicar (highly unlikely!) she would not come to my ordination. My dad is about it all and thinks she is going through a phase. She doesn't have any reasons WHY women shouldn't take church services, she just tells me it's wrong.

I'm just venting really!

Even I don't agree with that! But I think it's OK to have women vicars and such in the C of E and other denominations. I'm a Catholic but don't go to church now. But I certainly would hate women priests in our church.

1 Corinthians 14:34

written by Paul who never met Jesus.

Obviously, all the books are written by men who thought they were right, and subsequently translated, edited and rewritten by other men who had their own slant. The books are written by a bunch of (mostly well-meaning) men.

(I use "men" not to differentiate from "women" but to differentiate from "God")

Paul's letter was meant for a church at a particular moment in time and not for all churches at all times. Some of Paul's letters make more sense as emails written in the heat of the moment and this is one of them.

Whenever I come across misogyny masquerading as a religion right I like to think of this (used on a banner protesting about this issue)

"I didn't come from your rib, you came from my vagina"

It is taking the traditional part of the church a bit of time to catch up with what God seems to want.

Yes to this. My church, the US Episcopal Church, which is part of the Anglican Communion, has ordained women as priests since 1977.

It was the first church in the Anglican Communion to consecrate a woman bishop (in 1989) and the first to have a woman primate (presiding bishop, roughly the American equivalent of the Archbishop of Canterbury), selected in 2006. It has consecrated two openly gay non-celibate bishops, one of them a woman. Needless to say, these actions have been controversial and have even led to schism; one reason I remain active in the church is to support this liberal evolution.

It does sound like the theological argument wouldn't sway her if it's just a 'set in her ways' type thing.

You could try making the point that things change for good reasons, and would she prefer we still had slavery/no vote for women/burning 'witches' at the stake, but then again that may be a tad inflammatary

With the passages from Paul, it's always worth pointing out that as well as passages such as the above, which doesn't mean a universal 'rule', there are passages advocating women speaking in church and praising them for their apostleship. These always get forgotten somehow...

Good luck....not sure you'll get anywhere really. :(

sauce

So why no woman pope?

There are no women priests and cardinals in the Roman Catholic Church because the Pope has said that it is not possible. In theory Pope Frances could change his mind and start the process to allow this but from what I hear, he is radical but not that radical.

In the Church of England there could be a woman archbishop once the legislation to allow women bishops goes through. It is hoped that this will be in the autumn and the first women bishops in the C of E could be consecrated in the autumn. When Archbishop Justin retires, which will be in a quiet a few years time as he is barely in post, a woman could then be considered for Archbishop.

She has a perfect right to believe whatever she wants to believe.

But if you really want to get your own back, start calling god "She".

The vast majority of CofE clergy do suppory female priests, and we have a female arch deacon near us. I work for the church so can say with a (small degree) of knowledge in this area!

Its an 'older' generation way of thinking. Just like 30 years ago people boarding a plane would comment on a female pilot!

She has to remember the roles of women in the bible. There were female apostles, but when the bible was written, people just weren't ready to hear it. If you don't think a woman can be a priest, then how can they be saints?

It is, I think, a rather unchristian way of thinking that womens role in church goes as far as polishing the pews, doing the flowers and making the tea.

And I think catholc priest ought to be able to be married too (they were in the early days!).

Thank you so much. Those of you who say she can believe what she wants are absolutely right. I know that and I just have to accept we have different opinions.

I suppose my issue with it is, sorry mum, I just don't think she's actually put much thought in to it. She's swapped to Catholicism because there are no female priests and she likes the Wednesday afternoon chats with old friends. Perhaps that is a good enough reason, but, to me, it seems a bit superficial. However, she can believe and do what she wants! Oddly, she won't discuss women in the church or Catholicism with my dad.

RichardLawton - good idea! My younger dc go to a village c of e school. They are in a religious phase at the moment. I often suggest the idea that god might be a woman to them. Or that it's just an energy and not a man/woman at all.....they look a bit confused at that one!

I think we have to accept the many paths theory. I don't think it matters that much that your mother's reasons are superficial. Maybe God works in mysterious ways. Different religions suit different people or even no religion at all if that's what people want.

We have to live with our families views even if we don't agree wit hthem. My sister became a born again christian at the age of 23, she is now a pastor with a pentacostal church. She converted our mother and brought up her two children in her faith, tells them that santa is really satan, sending them to a Baptist school.

I am a lifelong athiest and think she's nuts, but there's nothing I can do. She prays for me daily and subscribes me to creationist magazines. I just keep my mouth zipped, and don't discuss religion with her.

Op this is very interesting and something I have many questions with.

I fundamentally struggle with my belief. I believe in god. Although I'm c of e I guess it's based there but mixes in everything I experience (other religions, modern world). I frequently feel my beliefs are.... Heck I'm struggling.

Ok I'll try a comparison might not work... The OT feels like Microsoft version one. The NT maybe versions when I started work and was gifted the internet by the firm back in late 90's. So there's been probably time for religion to have shifted a few versions on.... But I am using Apple. That modern life and rights of wrongs like segregation, voting, women priests, gay rights etc has pushed what I believe is right and normal so far forwards that I really don't know where it fits.

My 'apple' beliefs couldn't exist without the early Microsoft and relies still on those building blocks but it's also in some ways incompatible. What do I do? Where/how does this fit?

No wonder we (I assume I'm not alone..?) struggle with different generations. And within ourselves...

Please if you have any thoughts, I'm very interested. Tried alpha but didn't help...

Creationist magazines - yikes!

Minnie - I think I know what you mean. I have always been muddled in what I believe. I have never understood how a person can follow one religion. If I was to have religious beliefs they would be a mix of different religions.

I'm in an atheist mood at the moment, but what I think is not set in stone. A few years ago I did the alpha course - this just confirmed that I did not fit in with the C of E way of thinking! Since then I have become more of an atheist.

Minnie Don't worry you can always download a new update!

Capsium, op yup that's what I feel I do. This place gave me 'understanding benefits' v1 for example. And wishing understood babies v1-21....

Just feel ahead of what religion teaches. Still think there's a power there but it doesn't look like it used to....

Ahead implies better than. That's not it btw.

The computer analogy is an interesting one. We are living in a period of transition from modernity to something else. Modernity is said to start in Europe around the 18th century enlightenment period. The ways of thought that go with the enlightenment are about certainty and an IBM style operating system. My impression of evangelical and protestant churches is that they operate in IBM mode.

Post modernity has its roots in 19th century Romanticism and has really come into play since the 1960s. Post modern thought (huge generalisation here) is more about feelings and intuition, so an Apple style operating system.

Those churches that do Alpha are more likely to be in IBM mode and interpret the Bible as rules and regulations. Other churches will do the Pilgrim Course or Emmaus where you will probably encounter the great narrative arc of the Bible and an encounter with the mystery that is the triune God.

Does that help Minnieisthedevilmouse?

Wow. Had no idea there were other alphas. How naive. Yes it does help. I'll google. Glad I wasn't way off base using a computer to describe things. Did wonder what might be said on that.... Interesting post greenroundabouts

Tis because you're using Apple, Minnie. Everyone knows they take over your life and squeeze all your choices away. You want Windows 8 [not]

I wouldn't completely agree about evangelical churches and those who do Alpha being stuck in IBM mode, though I can very well see that a lot are, and the comparison does make me snigger a little. But I think we need to be careful with the word evangelical, actually. It is too often only used to mean fundamentalist, those stuck on literalism etc, when there is a whole branch which is totally not - open evangelicalism. Now I struggle with the word nowadays, because while I have generally self described as evangelical/open evangelical, I find there are more and more people who then put me in the Republican gun toting box, when I am as about as far removed as you could get (those who know me here know some of my political views ) - I wonder then if we need some new terminology which moves away from the word 'evangelical' but which still embraces the good things that open evangelicalism does.

For me, I take stuff out of many traditions, but evangelical charismatic is still where I am - in the true meanings of the words, rather than what they have sadly become.

As for Alpha, it generally reflects the church/group running it - I've done a few and none have been based around rules/regulations etc - they really do depend on the slant of the leaders, I suppose. I've done Emmaus too, and others - love that there is a breadth of material for different purposes and audiences.

Sorry, that's a bit tangential there from the OP and from Minnie - I have a bit of a high horse which I must get down from

The computer analogy is interesting though. I think that we do change in our thinking and reasoning as society does, but for me there are central unchanging things about my faith which are constant. The stuff around it is husk, in a sense - and it's important for us to form views about this kind of thing, and views will differ, but the central stuff - the creed's outline - is always there, unchanging as God is unchanging. Something very peaceful in that somehow.

atthestroke yes, yikes indeed at the creationist magazines. Some of the stuff you have written about your sister makes me worry and sad, really. She told her kids Santa is satan? :( To me, this stuff doesn't make any kind of sense in the light of the faith I follow. But it's easy to say, I know. People do believe this and do hurt others when trying to enforce that belief. I wish things could be different.

I nicked the computer analogy from Tom Wright so a good solid evangelical pedigree for that one. Actually I agree that open evangelicalism is a thoroughly good thing and it is where I'd like to go and worship when I'm not leading stuff in my own church. It would be a long drive though as I'm a conservative heartland. Maybe in the next parish there will be a nice lively open evo place nearby where I can go and forget about BCP evensong. Sorry tangent...