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Can an Anglo Catholic take communion in Catholic Mass and vice-versa?

42 replies

Loobingler · 27/01/2014 19:14

I'm Anglo Catholic and just wondering whether I would be allowed. I'm not planning to, just curious!

OP posts:
Gingerdodger · 28/01/2014 08:12

The words 'catholic and apostolic' are not capitalised in the Nicene Creed,in discussions with others most practising Catholics I know view this to be the wider Church, not just Catholics, although there are those who would consider the Catholic church to be closer the apostolic beginnings due to the direct descent from the original Roman church. Hence why baptism in most other denominations is accepted as true baptism for those wishing to convert.

I understand that the Catholic and Orthodox churches consider their beliefs about Eucharist to be closely related and that both can receive communion in each others.

The official line is that non Catholics (other than as above) should not take communion, for the reasons described above, Catholics do believe that it becomes the body and blood of Christ and people should be prepared and committed to this. The reality as described above is that all sorts of people take communion and nobody checks credentials at the altar but I guess it is down to individuals and their conscience. I am not sure where that leaves a protestant who believes in transubstantiation, they really should not according to the law of the church, but then neither should lots of us for all sorts of reasons! I guess its between individuals and God but personally think it would be disrespectful to take it and not explored the meaning of it and not be signed up to what it means.

I don't think I would take communion in a non catholic church. To me the Eucharist is so special to view it as purely symbolic would not feel right and I wouldn't feel that I was being respectful to that church as not signed up to what it meant to them.

1944girl · 31/01/2014 02:27

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LittleBabyPigsus · 01/02/2014 01:32

1944 it's interesting - I am an Anglo-Catholic and have considered converting to Roman Catholicism, and the issue of the True Presence is not an issue at all. Most Anglo-Catholics and a good deal of MOTR-to-high Anglicans believe in consubstantiation, which I know is not the same but it's a relatively small step to take. Mary and the saints? Also no issue at all, we have them at my church.

My issues with the RCC are all to do with gender/sexuality/abortion, and while I know that there are RCs who disagree with church doctrine and still go to Mass and receive the Eucharist....I could not deal with that. For me it's a case of having to agree totally or not at all. As you are on an RCIA team, what would be your advice to someone like me? Like, I am with the RCC 95% of the time which is prob more than most Catholics, but that last 5% just won't let me go.

Also, I am considering ordination to the priesthood in the CoE which would obviously not be possible in the RCC and I wouldn't want that opportunity to not be there at all.

In answer to the OP - Catholics are not supposed to take Communion in non-Catholic services. Non-Catholics would generally (but not always) be happy to let them if they chose to receive. As an Anglo-Catholic I would never receive in an RC Mass - I know the priest wouldn't know I wasn't Catholic unless I said so, but to me it would be dishonest.

HoneyandRum · 01/02/2014 13:03

I converted from atheism. I became Catholic because of my intense encounter with God that completely changed me. I discovered a living God who was relating personally to me - who revealed himself to me. I had to respond to where I found God, and I did not put preconditions on that. I had to be where I found Jesus and that has not changed after 25 years. I did not pick the church because of a laundry list of expectations. I didn't tell God what I was going to do for him or what I expected him to do for me - love doesn't work that way, at least, not for me.

TeacupDrama · 01/02/2014 17:42

there are generally considered to be five views of what happens at communion

  1. transubstantiation the bread and wine change into body and blodd of christ called the real presence a Roman Catholic and orthodox view though they tend to call it a mystery as what happens in unknown and unknowable
  1. consubstantiation a union between the bread and wine and christ#s body that Christ is with in and under the sacraments the View held by Martin Luther and the Lutheran churches
  1. that Christ is spitually present in the bread and wine but not physically present held by other reformed groups and by most presbyterians from Calvin and Knox
  1. no physical or spiritual presence but a memorial service symbolic of what Christ did in shedding his blood the view of many baptist and evangelical churches

5, Salvation army and quakers do not have communion at all believing grace of God comes from believing rather than any sacrament they also generally do not baptise either

LittleBabyPigsus · 02/02/2014 08:51

Honey I don't think wanting women and gay people to be treated as equals are unreasonable expectations. A God worth believing in would have that as the bare minimum.

HoneyandRum · 02/02/2014 10:13

I did not say anything about unreasonable expectatations. The majority of Catholics are in the global South not the global North so their concerns and priorities for the church will dominate. As we have seen the Papacy has now moved South and I imagine that our Popes from now on will be more likely to come from Latin American, Africa and India than Europe.

In 2050 the countries with the largest Catholic populations will be as follows:

  1. Brazil
  2. Mexico
  3. Philippines
  4. United States
  5. Democratic Repulic of Congo
  6. Uganda
  7. France
  8. Italy
  9. Nigeria
10. Argentina

Most European Christians of any stripe are only nominally so, so France and Italy will have little influence in setting the Catholic worldwide agenda for priority issues.

The profile of Southern Catholicism is morally conservative, politically liberal. Their concerns are globalization, environmentalism (strong protections of the environment), access to education and healthcare, and their problems are of growth in the church not decline. They are also very youthful and optimistic parts of the church, vigorous and not weighed down by the past. The Reformation for example, has no meaning to them.

As I'm sure you know Catholics understand priesthood in a different way than Anglicans and other Christians. In most parts of the world parishes are very large and the priest has a very large congregation. When I lived in the US our parish had at least 700 registered families, (each famiy on average 4 or more people) so those very active in the parish - plus many people who who we're not registered but still came to Mass. So at least a couple of thousand people coming to Mass on Sunday. We had five Masses on Sunday - all full. Therefore the Priest's role worldwide is becoming more and more focused on the liturgy and sacraments while all other pastoral work that can be, is done by laity.

As of 2005 roughly 80% of the 31,000 lay ecclesial ministers in the US were women. Co-Workers in the Vineyard of the Lord provides this breakdown: laywomen - 64%; religious women, 16% and laymen; 20%.

In our parish the physical plant: church, school and large parish community center was the responsibility of a woman and her staff. Our Financial director was a woman. Catechisis was done by a large team of people, first the leaders were a Deacon and his wife. Then they retired and my female friend who has a Masters is Theology took over. Our diocese's most senior Canon lawyer was a woman for example and almost 40% of professional workers at the Vatican are women.

Changes are happening but with a huge, international organization such as the church it will happen gradually. John Paul II appointed in 2004 Salesian Sr. Erica Rosanna to a senior Vatican post and Harvard law professor Mary Ann Glendon as the President of the Pontifical Academy for Social Sciences, the first women to head a pontifical academy. More appointments have happened since then. Symbolic maybe, but signs of where the church is going.

The church is enormous. "One can make a good case that Catholicism also contains elements of what system theorists playfully call "organized anarchy", meaning a loosely organized system that contains multiple power and authority structures. Think of the interplay of the Vatican, national bishops' conferences, individual bishops in their dioceses, religious orders, lay movements, charismatic Catholic intellectuals and activists, and so on. Organized anarchies tend to be uncertain, unpredictable, and nonlinear. Changes are likely to be scattered throughout the system in different ways and to a different extent, depending upon local circumstances and opinion. All these forces are at work inside the Catholic Church with regard to lay roles, which make it difficult to anticipate how the picture will develop in the twenty-first century. Changes are unlikely to occur in uniform fashion." John L. Allen Jr.

Nothing stops lay women from forming and leading lay movements if the Spirit leads them. The founder of Focolare (founded in Italy in 1943) was a woman, Chiara Lubich. Focolare is present in 182 countries reaching 4.5 million people. The Focolare constitution requires that the president be a woman.

HoneyandRum · 02/02/2014 15:26

My apologies, I spelt the first name of Sr. Rosanna wrong. Her name is Enrica not Erica.

LittleBabyPigsus · 03/02/2014 22:50

Sorry, but women getting to do the donkey work when men get the status is inherently misogynistic and wrong. Anglo-Catholics actually don't see the priesthood differently to RCs, yet still have female clergy and the sky hasn't fallen in. Pretty language about esteeming women doesn't change the fact that excluding people on the basis of gender from the priesthood is wrong and discriminatory, and the RCC's actions speak louder than words here.

I understand that developing nations have different cultural experiences of Catholicism, but that does not change the basic justice of allowing women to take a full and equal role in the church.

HoneyandRum · 04/02/2014 06:00

Well, we'll see what the Holy Spirit brings us. I do not think any Catholic women I know consider what they do "donkey work". Can't wait to tell my two daughters that St. Teresa of Avila, St. Catherine of Siena, St. Edith Stein and Dorothy Day did donkey work. Is that truly a Christian attitude toward women? The priesthood is vastly outnumbered by a very active laity. The Anglo-Catholics I have encountered tell me their parish often is not larger than 100 people. Catholic parishes in most parts of the world run into the thousands and are involved locally in a huge number of ministries. Women are leading these ministries, which include universities and health care systems. A Catholic woman is on the US Supreme Court, a Catholic woman is the head of the US Democratic party.

We do not have the same beliefs about priesthood. If that was the case why did Catholics in the past have to build priest holes to hide their priests from the state (Anglican) authorities? Why was being a Catholic priest punishable by death for many years if it was the same thing? Most Anglicans are not Anglo-Catholics and many of the leaders that began the Anglo Catholic movement became Catholic. John Newman became a Catholic Cardinal.

I don't think there will be any resolution of this issue on MN. I believe it best to respect each others beliefs and respective churches and remain in the love of Christ. The Catholic church is huge and has had and is having all the debates internally that you bring up. Practicing Catholic women on MN are not going to leave the church because others disagree.

curlew · 04/02/2014 06:13

What do you think might happen if you did, OP?

curlew · 04/02/2014 06:16

" I didn't tell God what I was going to do for him or what I expected him to do for me - love doesn't work that way, at least, not for me."

Well, God seems quite happy to provide a laundry list of what he expects people to do for him, so love certainly seems to work that way for him...........

HoneyandRum · 04/02/2014 08:12

LittleBabyPigsus I hope my comments come over as respectful, as that is the spirit in which they are written. I do appreciate that Christian women have very strong and understandable reasons for their beliefs and feelings on these issues. The debates have been within the CC since at least the '60s - so 50 years. I am attempting to convey why women still love the church, join the church and baptise their children raising them Catholic. I personally know many female converts to the Catholic church (I'm one myself) and all would call themselves feminist. This may seem at odds with your views, and I appreciate that. What brings them to the church and keeps them there is Jesus - especially in the Eucharist.

An example of a woman whose life reflects the internal issues of leadership and pastoring in the church is Victoria Ries, one of my professors at Seattle University when I was studying for an MA in the late '90s. Due to the priest shortage the Archbishop, Raymond Hauthausen created the position of Pastoral Life Director - which is a person who has full leadership responsibilities of a parish - except those of Sacraments and proclaiming and preaching of the Word which were the responsibility of a priest (who was only part-time). She was not the only woman appointed to this position. This caused tremendous controversy in the church but she served as PLD for 10 years. When a new Archbishop was appointed he changed her title but really her role remains the same. Many parishioners at her parishes would consider her their pastor. She has now served the church in a ministerial capacity for 35 years while also a faculty member at the University (she has a Ph.d from Chicago). For many outside the church the role she has would still be seen as the church moving too slowly. Within the church many would consider the role inappropriate and the church moving too quickly. So she is living this contradiction in her life and ministry throughout this period (who knows how long it will last) as the whole church grapples with the changes in women's (and lay people generally) rights, roles, mission, call and spirituality. Her parish is building a new parish center and naming it after her.

www.stcatherineparish.net/2011/07/about-our-parish-staff

chateauferret · 22/03/2014 23:23

@curlew - God provides a law setting out how He wishes us to deal with Him and each other but His love is not conditional on compliance with it. That's why He sent His Son into the world. HTH.

GeorgeRoberts21 · 18/06/2014 01:34

Transubstantiation is Roman Catholic Dogma that that at the consecration (priest says "this is my Body" "This is...my Blood" in the Mass bread and wine cease to exist and become the body and blood soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ.
Some Anglo Catholics believe this, I hold it as plausible. It is clear in the Bible Jesus is truly present in the blessed Sacrament no doubt, but wether bread and wine are annihilated is debatable in my opinion.

weegiemum · 18/06/2014 02:35

I'm a baptist.

We see it as a memorial remembrance. The saving work was on the cross, not in our churches.

Our stance is "if you love The Lord you are welcome at his table"

And I've had mass in several RC churches. For me, it's a memorial. I can eat bread and drink wine and I don't have to think that it turns into anything else. I'm able to "proclaim the Lord's death until He comes" without thinking that tarn substantiation is good doctrine.

GeorgeRoberts21 · 18/06/2014 02:51

Some also hold that the Presence of Christ in the Eucharist is spiritual not corporal, that we become united to the Ressurected Jesus through worthy (sorry for sins, confess our sins) reception of the Species wherein Jesus is spiritually (but truly) present.

Personally I also hold this as a plausible opinion, (I also believe Consubstantion and Transubstantiation are also plausible) I don't believe in being absolute in this regard (or any for that matter) but I do believe Jesus is truly present in the Eucharist (as an Anglo Catholic) as a former Roman Catholic I don't believe in Rigid absolute dogma that cannot be proven by scripture. Even the Fathers differed in this important regard, but they all agreed Jesus is really present.
It's not wrong to say its a symbol, but it must be more than that, Jesus himself says that too.

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