Scientology

[technodad]

So, the Supreme Court have said that Scientology is a real religion and you can legally get married in a church.

uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/idUKBRE9BA0CQ20131211?irpc=932

So, what do people think about this?

Quite.

Religions & cults have more in common than they'd all care to admit - that's the crux of this.

They all think they have the answer, they all demand gullibility, they all make promises.....and none of them happen to be true.

On this level, Scientology & Christianity are positively bosom buddies.

Why did you think Howard was a Moonie, CeQue?

Sorry to hear about your friend, Howard. And sorry for accusing you of being a Moonie - it was just the name.

I guess the powers that be would argue that you 'have to draw the line somewhere' in allowing some cults to call themselves religions and others not, given the huge benefits of being a 'religion' versus being a 'cult'.

I am also an atheist after being a lifelong Christian. When I discovered that dinosaurs pre-dated us by about 45 million years... well, that did it for me. We were not here first, we were not here for ages. The world was not 'made' for us.

I agree with Howard. The reason I invented this synthetic/natural distinction is to point out that there is no difference in the characteristics of Scientology. And that's hardly surprising when we remember that it was designed that way as an experiment/ bet, according to what I read. Naturally occurring religion and synthetic, nature-identical religion look very similar. If scientologists were posting here, they would have the same emotional attachment to their faith as the Christians posting here do.

I would like to see faith become a strictly private matter. Full freedom of worship subject to equality of women and other faiths, but no special fiscal, educational or constitutional privilege.

I don't think there's much doubt that Joseph Smith was running a scam when he invented Mormonism. Though I've met mormons and used to know some missionaries and just like with every religion there are decent people who sincerely believe in it.

Agree about 'hybrids' and I think that's the easiest way to start a new religion. You instantly gain 1000s of years of history and credibility and then you can say "but god now wants us to do things differently". Without really having to explain why god didn't do it that way from the start.

The start of mormonism looks to me just like the start of Christianity and indeed Jesus was reputed to say that god now wants us to do things differently.

Whether Jesus (if he existed) was doing it on purpose or whether it was Paul that saw an opportunity is unclear.

CeQue I find that very interesting. At what age did you find out about dinosaurs, and how was the knowledge kept from you before? (I am not trying to be snarky, it's a genuine question, as I am often baffled by creationists and the like)

Howard, I couldn't agree more. My wish is not so much for religions to be banned as for them to have no special privileges, exemptions or respect.

Beast primitive religions, yes. But there is an evolution of human/thought spirituality that runs more or less parallel to our evolution from primitive hunter gatherer to city dwelling global inhabitants. While primitive religions may not have been about self improvement they were certainly a form of attempting to understand and impose a framework on the cosmos in order to gain some sense of who we were and what we were for.

The move towards to monotheism and from there towards the "I" internalised spirituality of Christianity (which actually has more in common with the separately evolved religions of the east) is not totally separate from the journey towards our current situation, where spirituality has perhaps been replaced with psychology and psychiatry.

Despite its cod psychiatric assessments, I think that $cientology has no place in that line of evolution.

Beastofburden

I always believed that God made man and then all the animals. In that order. Then I discovered that - put quite simply - the dinosaurs came first, then 45 million years later humans arrived. This completely undermines the argument that God made the world for us.

CeQue, I get that- but at what age did you get the facts?

Wild, I do see what you mean, of course. If we were to treat modern Christianity as a different religion from Christianity of the Roman era, I suspect we would not be far out. There have been very significant changes.

I am just not quite so sure as you are about the motivation of the founders of Christianity. But of course I share the view that Scientology is extremely unpalatable. And there are good people inside (and to be fair, also outside) the Christian church.

Erm, last year . Before that, I believed that humans and dinosaurs co-existed.

Not wanting to out you- can you give an age range for when you found out? 20-30, 30-40, 40-50?

I am just interested in how it is possible to be a "lifelong" Christian based on not knowing this stuff (still not meaning to be mean). It would tend to support my view that teaching creationism on schools is extremely damaging.

Sometimes you can already know enough facts to blow religion out of the water but not realise it until something comes along to make you look at it closely. You just don't put the two things together.

When the subject of faith schools comes up religious people claim that kids can still make up their own mind. Trouble is you can leave school just assuming that religion is true until something makes you take a long look at it.

I was in my thirties. I have a science degree.

Given that the nature of faith is to believe despite challenges, I would tend to agree that faith school and early religious teaching leave less room for changing your kind than people tend to assume.

What we take for granted as children has the power to be instinctive forever. Just look at what other childhood experiences do. People have no trouble believing that childhood abuse can mark you for many many years in irrational ways. Not saying a religious upbringing is abusive, just that "Give me a child until he is seven and I will guarantee you the man" is based on sound psychology.

Cor. I have seen pictures of men and dinosaurs co existing in Salt Lake City but I thought they were allegories to most people. So you were just told this as truth by parents and such?

How have they reacted now? Do they think you are wrong, or did they admit they were telling stories like Father Christmas?

BoB, it was something I gave absolutely no thought to until someone mentioned it. Then I thought about it. Then Stephen Hawking (a man I have huge respect for) started talking about 'fairy stories', then I concluded - sadly - that everything I grew up believing was probably wrong.

What about you? What are your beliefs?

Ceque, very interesting, and an example which tends to support what back has posted.

My beliefs are coloured by having two disabled DC, one profoundly so. I can't reconcile a loving or powerful god with this. It seems to me that a god who is creator of all things must have deliberately created my sons disability.

People tell me that it happens for a reason, but I don't accept that my son was a disposable thing to be destroyed in this way to benefit somebody else- he had the right to be born healthy.

And I am not interested in the argument that god will help me bear suffering, or will suffer with me. If god existed, he would be the perpetrator. I am not interested in his support, thank you very much. If I buried an axe in a child's head and then offered to make their mother a cup of tea, I would be jailed, not worshipped.

So I am an atheist. I think people invent religions over and over again because they are desperate not to feel alone: they want protection, love, and a promise that their loved ones are not really dead. Understandable, but not true.

I actually think being able to reconcile the problem of suffering is more than believing that men used to stroke dinosaurs.

So sorry to hear about your DC, BoB.

I think people believe in religion because they can't bear the alternative... that when you die, that is it. You are no longer alive. You are gone forever.

I think that is certainly one reason why people believe. But there are many others.

DS2 is 17 now, so don't worry- I've had time to get used to it :)

I think it is true that Scientology was invented by Ron Hubbard. A boyfriend of mine was drawn into it at a vulnerable time in his life when he was recovering from a heroin addiction.

But how is Christianity and different? A group of people at the centre of the religion have great wealth, and cover up secrets of wrong doing and corruption, whilst taking money from the followers?

The only difference is that Christianity was founded a long time ago, but the principles are the same.

Also, to back up what someone said earlier. The idea that we might be descendants of lizards and more credible than the idea that the world is only 6000 years old.

What makes one "story" acceptable as a religion and another one unacceptable. Just because Christianity is older, why does it have greater value?

I agree, technodad. I am actually rather pleased by this judgement, as it forces people to confront the reality of what it means to be a religion.

It isn't any different.

Discussions about the motivations of founders, need for spiritual enlightenment and so on are all very well, but they are a bit irrelevant.

Rubbish is rubbish - the "niceness" or honesty of the adherents doesn't make it any less rubbish.