Why do people believe in things when the body of scientific evidence shows otherwise

[technodad]

This is not intended to be an attack on any denomination of belief. The aim of this thread is to try to understand why people choose to believe things, when there are far more likely explanations and why people choose to not trust the scientific opinion.

I am not particularly thinking about a discussion about religion because clearly "faith", some old books and preaching make a difference there (although, please discuss religion if it is relevant). I am thinking more about things like:

• People don't believe global is happening when the vast majority of the scientific community can provide evidence that it is.

• People believe in ghosts when their existance violates all the laws of physics and pretty much all "ghost events" (if not absolutely all) can be explained without mystery.

• People don't get their kids vaccinated (e.g. MMR), when it is clear that not vaccinating is orders of magnitude more dangerous than vaccinating.

• People think that palm reading, tea leaf reading, etc actually works...

• People believe in "alternative" medicines work, when every "alternative" medicine that actually works is now simple called "medicine"!

The rules are as follows:

1. You can say what ever you like, and I don't care if you insult me.

2. If you post something, you may have someone say something that challenges your deeply held beliefs, so please only post if this is acceptable to you.

3. No one is allowed to complain about anyone being horrible, or arrogant, based upon the fact that people will only post here if they are up for a debate (see 2).

4. There is no 4.

msmiggins how is it saving them money if they have to buy tap water from a homeopathy supplier anyway?

And doesn't that sound quite mad? Why not just get tap water and put it in bottles or issue sugar pills? Do the homeopathic people own the recipe for water?

I can't help wondering if there's some kickback for the doctors when I hear about things like that.

oh and if my gp said

"The recommended treatment for eczema is" (from the NHS site)

antihistamines for severe itching
oral corticosteroids for severe symptoms
antibiotics for infected eczema

topical immunosuppresants, which reduce or suppress your body's immune system, such as pimecrolimus cream and tacrolimus ointment

"but we're giving him water to save money"

I would break his arm and say "stick that under the tap"

That's not the main reason of course, our local GPs find it a very effective treatment for certain types of complaints.

Probably excellent for curing in a fortnight what would otherwise take a full two weeks to get better by itself.

The homeopath give patients private prescriptions which a local pharmacy supplies. The remedies are usually inexpensive- £2-£3.
I am not getting into a debate with you over homeopathy. I have seen many phenomenae in my scientific career to know that we are only scratching the surface of our understanding. Global morphic resonance effects for instance where mass crystallisation of novel substances happen simultaneously for the first time.

Errol there is a long waiting list for our homeopathic service. Most of the people referred have long term chronic complaints such as eczema which have been manifest for several years and proved stubborn to treatment by allopathic medicine. 70% of her patients are children.

"You dismiss all complimentary therapies. You must be a priviledged place of superior knowledge. I salute you."

No I don't.

But I sure as hell dismiss homeopathy.

Oh, and reiki. I dismiss that too.

Curlew - that's your perogative. Don't expect everyone to agree with you though.

msmiggins no need to debate homeopathy because it's already been settled. It's water and there's no two ways about it. There are no ingredients. If you claim to be a scientist.. hold on. You mean the science of homeopathy don't you? I googled Global morphic resonance effects and got Sheldrake and David Icke.

This is about lizards isn't it?

ok moving on.

"Curlew - that's your perogative. Don't expect everyone to agree with you though."

I don't. I do expect anyone capable of critical thinking to agree with me though. And they do. Isn't that a coincidence!

Twenty GPs in my area don't agree with you Curlew. Are none of them capable of critical thinking? Why would they fight so hard for a service that costs money to run?

backonlybriefly- how nice to google something and then suddenly become an expert.

Rupert Sheldrake........hmmmm.

What sort of a scientist are you, Mrsmiggins?

Oh, and the 20 GPs? I bet they are just delighted to pass the worried well, the chronic mild illnesses and anxieties on to someone else who will calm and soothe them without taking up the time of an expensively trained doctor........

I'm no expert, but I thought it sounded like something I'd heard before and yes that was it. It's one of the woo catchphrases isn't it. Water remembers right?

So now we know you are out there with the pixies and the lizards and the magical crystals and we don't have to take you seriously.

So water remembers the medicine that it was once near, but completely forgets all the urine that it's had in it.

It's kind of sweet. I expect the tooth fairy comes into it somewhere.

I have seen many phenomenae in my scientific career to know that we are only scratching the surface of our understanding.

YY to that.
I really think that to think that you know something for sure and you know that homeopathy/acupuncture/whatever CAM is just placebo effect is just as arrogant than saying 'putting a trout in front of your mouth works to cure a cold' (to take a previous example).

The idea that to prove a certain treatment is efficient, it has to go through very specific steps that might not be adequate for said treatment is a very recent idea. For a long time, the idea that a GP/consultant experience of what works was seen as just as important.
These are GPs who have seen homeopathy work, and to work on ailment that don't just solve in 2 weeks such as eczema (anyone who has had a child with eczema will tell you it can be quite distressing). With something that has few or no side effects.
And you are telling me that these GP/consultant experience is just ... rubbish, unreliable?
And that the patient experience is also ... unreliable/uninteresting/not worth your interest?
Because ... it's just placebo effect and no 'medicine' has actually being given.

Who is being inflexible and refusing to accept that maybe, just maybe, there is something else going on here?

Alternative medicine is not actually a subject that interests me very much, and i don't need to prove my providence to you.
I think we need to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. There are lots of alternative medicines which we don't understand the mechanisms for. An clinical evidence based approach and a moderate attitude is surely the most helpful.

"Who is being inflexible and refusing to accept that maybe, just maybe, there is something else going on here?"

Because that "something" doesn't happen under controlled conditions. If it did, even though the was no explanation, it would be a case of "we don't know why it works, but it does,and we'll find out why one day". But it doesn't.

"There are lots of alternative medicines which we don't understand the mechanisms for."

Could you name a few?

curlew I like the assumption that if someone doesn't agree with you (or Black etc...) then it's obviously that they are not capable of any critical thought ....

Usually when people resort to that sort of attack, it's because they know they are wrong

I have said it before and will say it again. There are scientists who believe in God. Scientists who think that homeopathy/CAM are working. And scientists who think that it's not because it hasn't been proven by 'science' that it is wrong.
And they are all very serious scientists with a full on critical mind.

Interesting that the NHS continues to fund homeopathy despite critics, including several fully funded NHS homeopathic hospitals.

"curlew I like the assumption that if someone doesn't agree with you (or Black etc...) then it's obviously that they are not capable of any critical thought ...."

I think I've only said that about homeopathy and reiki. And I am happy to stick to it. Unless you can show me a study which proves they ork?

"Scientists who think that homeopathy/CAM are working. And scientists who think that it's not because it hasn't been proven by 'science' that it is wrong."

Name me a few?

Global morphic resonance effects for instance where mass crystallisation of novel substances happen simultaneously for the first time.

They really don't, you know. OK, sometimes crystal structures might be solved at similar times but that would be because it was a substance which was interesting and so different groups would be trying to crystallise it at about the same time. I got beaten to a paper myself once back in the days when I was a crystallographer.

(actually quite shocked that anyone who claims to be a scientist would quote morphic resonance as a real thing... kinda blown any credibility there)

(actually quite shocked that anyone who claims to be a scientist would quote morphic resonance as a real thing... kinda blown any credibility there)

I have know many world class chemists who are interested in morphic resonance.
i am surprised that you are even a scientist if you have such a closed mind and claim to know it all.

Still hoping for names.......