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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

Religious texts and seemingly picking and choosing

103 replies

JazzAnnNonMouse · 05/10/2013 20:22

I can't help but notice lots of the religious people i know (largely Christian but not all) seem to pick and choose which bits of their religious texts they follow.

For example in the bible there are many examples which just don't fit with society values today but my question is: who told you you could choose which bits to follow..? Wouldn't you try and follow all the rules? If not, why?

I'm sorry if I'm not putting this across right, it's difficult to think of the right words to not sound rude! Grin

OP posts:
technodad · 11/10/2013 19:54

Dione

Why the smiley face. What is wrong with changing your mind after seeing evidence that is clear to everyone and not open to interpretation? I know it isn't very Christian to use evidence, but I would willingly convert if there was some.

That is the difference. You give me evidence, I review it and change my theory.

Sadly, you and Niminy don't do this. You see the evidence and make up some fluffy words to make the evidence go away!

HolofernesesHead · 11/10/2013 20:01

Liked the song, Techno! Clever and articulate. I've got to say, I don't believe in the god that Tim Minchin doesn't believe in, too. Oh no - that god he is singing about is nothing like the God I do trust in.

technodad · 11/10/2013 20:07

Fair enough.

The Church of England god is the god I don't believe in.. Or the others for that matter.

It is a catchy song.

HolofernesesHead · 11/10/2013 20:43

Yes, it is catchy, but possibly, dare I say it, irrelevant to this discussion as no-one is claiming the reality of the god described therein?

Surely it's more sensible to listen to what people are actually saying and to respond to that, rather than wheeling out an obviously straw man? (sorry, Tim. I'm sure you're very nice in real life.) People have said some really intelligent, good things on this thread about the Bible. It'd be a much more interesting thread if we focus on those.

technodad · 11/10/2013 20:46

Fair enough. I will let you crack on with that then. Is it difficult to move out of your comfort zone with my unintelligent discussion?

Cheers

Techno.

HolofernesesHead · 11/10/2013 21:00

No, don't be like that, Techno!

It's just that this could be a good conversation. Certainly from my POV the Bible is something I'm very interested in and am happy to chat about from various perspectives. Stay and chat!

technodad · 11/10/2013 21:04

I can't - I haven't read it since I was 10 years old, and didn't believe it then.

I have nothing to offer other than semi-clever quips and funny Tim Minchin videos. Have you heard his "pope" song?

DioneTheDiabolist · 11/10/2013 21:15

Techno, when I read my reply, I worried that it could be construed as snidey or sarcastic. The smiley face was to counter that and indicate that my thanks and interest in your reply were genuine.

technodad · 11/10/2013 21:23

No snags.

HolofernesesHead · 11/10/2013 21:25

No, I've not heard his Pope song. I really like Pope Francis though, so it'd better be good, ;)

technodad · 11/10/2013 21:37

You won't like it!

HolofernesesHead · 11/10/2013 21:49

Actually I think it's great - I'm not just saying that to be perverse, I do honestly agree with him 100% and I'm not even slightly offended by sweary language. Sometimes swearing is the most appropriate response to terrible things.

It opens up the huge issue of child abuse within churches, esp the RC church. Yes, there has been much covering up of that, although I hope I'm right in saying that the pendulum has swung considerably the other way towards protecting thevulnerable, inc children, and exposing abusers within churches. I know this is true in the C of E, very strongly so, and very rightly so. So I hope, hope, hope with all my heart that Tim Minchin's pope song becomes anachronistic.

Pope Francis has changed the tone of the arC church hugely in the very short time he's been Pope so far, so I have high hopes for him. I've read lots about him, his interviews and so on, and I really do think that his head and heart are in the right place.

Yougotbale · 12/10/2013 00:10

Not sure the pendulum swung? The pope quit because one of the bishops he helped get a senior position was found guilty of child rape and abuse. I think he thought he'd run and let someone else deal with it

technodad · 12/10/2013 07:04

Niminy.

If you have got over thinking I am a nitwit, I was wondering if you had any further thoughts on my number 3 and 4 comments from 18:24 last night?

HolofernesesHead · 12/10/2013 08:27

Yougotbale - I've got a busy day today but I'll try to come by later and talk to that one. (Just didn't want you to think I'm ignoring you!)

HolofernesesHead · 12/10/2013 08:30

And if you're interested Techno, I'll have a crack at your points / questions, although I kinda fear that I might be 'white noise' to you...No offence to you intended there, more a recognition that we probably talk very different languages when it comes to ultimate meaning.

niminypiminy · 12/10/2013 09:02

Technodad, I do wish you wouldn't just label things you don't agree with 'confirmation bias'. Of course I use arguments that support what I think: so do you, and so, heaven help us, do Brian Cox and Tim Minchin. Eliminating confirmation bias may be an important thing to do in writing a scientific paper, but conversation would hardly exist without it.

Returning to your points 3 and 4.

On 3, the first thing to say, yet again, is that God did not write the Bible. Humans wrote it. It's the record of a sustained attempt to understand God, and to see his purposes working out in human history. But between God and humans there's always a translation problem (to use a metaphor). The prophet Isaiah framed that problem this way: 'my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways'. In the Book of Job, one of Job's friends says, 'for God speaks in one way, and in two, though the people do not perceive it'. The people who wrote the Bible knew that they were trying to discern God's purposes through the imperfect medium of human language, and they stressed the need to listen very carefully to try and understand. That is what prayer is. Simply listening. Sometimes when I feel that it wouldn't hurt God to pick up the phone, I remember that I don't get to tell him where and when and how to speak. He will do it in his own way and time.

Doubtless you will say that is all empty words that don't mean anything. All I can say is that I have done my best to answer your point: but I am never going to say 'hey, yes, God wrote the Bible so why can't he just email us!', because I think that's missing the whole point.

On your point four, it's true that Malaria has been around for millennia. But your view, if you don't mind me saying so, is a very anthropocentric one. God loves the Malaria-carrying mosquitos as much as he loves us; they too are part of his amazing creation (no, I'm not a creationist - evolution is how life forms came to be as they are now). Who am I to demand that God should have wiped out the mosquitos in order to prevent human suffering? Who am I to say, even, that the Malaria parasite does not have a special place in God's heart (metaphorically speaking)? And, as I have said before on these boards, if we make the demand that God steps in to prevent human suffering, where are we to stop: will we have a means-tested misery audit so that only the most serious suffering gets stopped -- but then, is that fair to the sufferers just below the cut-off point? Do we want him to make all suffering, even the most trivial, go away? What would the world be like then? Would it affect how we experience joy?

But you are not really, seriously, entertaining those points, because human suffering is just a convenient stick with which to beat God.

niminypiminy · 12/10/2013 09:08

Holo, thinking about your question about books about the Bible. Something I read recently that I actually thought was pretty good was Marcus Borg's Reading the Bible Again for the First Time. Though obviously informed by serious scholarship I thought it was an interesting and thought-provoking and not too difficult presentation of liberal understandings of the Bible. And the chapters on Paul I thought were very good.

technodad · 12/10/2013 09:19

Niminy, I am not beating god with a stick, he doesn't exist.

So, just coming back to free will. Earlier you said that free will is the reason for African babies dying, but you are now saying that god has chosen to allow the Malaria virus to evolve.

So, which is it? Gods choice to kill babies or free will? I am confused.

Can you clarify which of the two it is, or is it both? Or... Neither?

niminypiminy · 12/10/2013 09:31

Technodad, it's a figure of speech.

I don't quite understand what is confusing you so much. My point was that it is an anthropocentric point of view to see the malaria parasite purely in terms of its effects upon humans. It exists in and for itself, and it's effects on humans though bad for us are not its primary purpose in existing.

The whole of God's creation is dear to him - including humans, pathogens and parasites.

technodad · 12/10/2013 10:13

What is confusing me, is that you said that babies dies because of human free will, and not because god is murdering them. But since Maleria has nothing to do with free will, and god created Maleria, that means that it is gods fault and not human free will.

So, you have contradicted yourself and I was seeking clarification of what exactly causes babies to die. Is it god killing them, or not?

BackOnlyBriefly · 12/10/2013 10:37

God did not write the Bible. Humans wrote it. It's the record of a sustained attempt to understand God

Just passing and saw the above. Niminy you wrote that, but I'm not just pointing to you as many religious people say the same thing. Even others in this thread.

Problem 1# You can imagine a guy 1000s of years ago adding a book or chapter to the bible which to him clarified god's intent. He'd be basing this on all the rest that god had said in the earlier books.

That's fine, but if you go back to the earliest writer he had no such basis. It had to come out of his own head unless god contacted him directly. Which posters have shown isn't practical (or god would do it now)

Problem 2# There are millions of devout christians out there who know the bible to be the literal word of god. Faith, prayer and the holy spirit - not to mention numerous miracles - have confirmed this so they can't be wrong.

But those christians who believe that humans wrote the bible can't be wrong either as they have had this confirmed by faith, prayer, the holy spirit and their own miracles.

So either god is deliberately deceiving millions or it's possible for millions of sincere christians, who through faith and prayer and life long devotion to their god, have come to a clear and sure knowledge of his love and plan for them, to be totally and absolutely wrong and to have been talking not to god all this time, but to their own imaginations.

madhairday · 12/10/2013 10:53

I can't join in with this as my brain fog is immense, I can barely follow it much to my frustration (drugged to the nines) - but I had to come and wave to all the regulars, and say I'm here in spirit, and wish I had more to say.

I am going to order 'unapologetic' now niminy and holo - your description of it has convinced me :)

DioneTheDiabolist · 12/10/2013 18:51

Techno, what evidence do you have that
a). It isn't very Christian to use evidence (actually, what does this even mean?)
and
b). I would not reconsider a previously held position following evidence to the contrary?ConfusedAngry

technodad · 12/10/2013 22:59

A) your posts on this and other threads.

B) your posts on this a s other threads.

Swipe left for the next trending thread