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Young Earth Creationists

1001 replies

PedroPonyLikesCrisps · 28/03/2013 18:57

I know Young Earth Creationists exist, I've seen them on telly, but never met one in real life, so I'm just wondering if anyone here is one or knows one or whether they are actually just incredibly rare and reserved for extreme tv debating!

OP posts:
BestValue · 18/04/2013 23:23

"Best, the thing with probability is that in an infinite universe, even the statistically very unlikely might be expected to happen. After all, someone wins the lottery most weeks."

The problem with this is two-fold:

  1. the universe is not infinite.
  2. Someone wins the lottery by design not by chance. A winner is chosen so SOMEONE has to win. In your analogy, no one HAD to win. See the difference?

You just made an argument for intelligent design, my friend. :^)

backonlybriefly · 18/04/2013 23:30

Winning as in "making a universe fit for god's children"?

Once again you appear to be saying it's a miracle that a universe intended for humans is just right for humans. But it wasn't 'intended' for anything.

BestValue · 18/04/2013 23:31

NG, regarding your link about Tibetans and altitude, see this starting at 8:00:

noblegiraffe · 18/04/2013 23:37
  1. even if it's not infinite, it's pretty damn big and has been going for a very long time and is expected to continue for a very long time, thus statistically unlikely things yet possible things are expected to happen somewhere at some point.

  2. A winner isn't chosen in the lottery, otherwise someone would win every week. Are you thinking of a raffle? 6 numbers are generated, people try to guess what they'll be. The chance of guessing the numbers is very very small and yet regularly people do. Because so many people play the lottery, the chances of someone getting the right numbers (fine tuning!) are actually good. Probability * number of trials = expected value.

noblegiraffe · 18/04/2013 23:54

best your YouTube video is dismissing some study from 1997, my link was referring to something completely different from 2010.

ICBINEG · 19/04/2013 01:05

best So I gave you a solid example of a beneficial mutation in a protein motor. Is that not enough?

What about the fast twitch muscle mutation we heard so much about during the olympics?

Are you looking for something more dramatic?

I am not intending to be goady in asking this - I genuinely don't understand why you wouldn't find the above examples compelling.

As is clear if we can agree to drop the daft attempt to split the world into species, all beneficial mutations are small at the time they happen...they snowball up into something bigger over time.

ICBINEG · 19/04/2013 01:05

best what makes you say the universe isn't infinite?

ICBINEG · 19/04/2013 01:16

Oh - what about those flying squirrel things? In fact aren't there lots examples of things that can hop large distances but not quite fly...or like exocets?

There seems to be quite a smooth continuum from non-flying to flying if you look at the creature in the twilight zone atm.

Isn't there a half bird half dinosaur fossil too?

When it comes to eyes, I already explained that you can make any given cell light sensing relatively easily. Bacteria can use this 'sense' almost immediately and change their behaviour as a result...oh hang on that might have been bacteria that had been given both the ability to sense light and generate it. Something to do with chorum sensing.

EllieArroway · 19/04/2013 01:27

1. the universe is not infinite
2. Someone wins the lottery by design not by chance. A winner is chosen so SOMEONE has to win. In your analogy, no one HAD to win. See the difference?

1: How do you know this, then?
2: Not true. A winner is never "chosen", quite often no one wins at all so it's goes to a roll over next week. If the lottery "chose" a winner, that would be fraud. It's all about chance - so the analogy stands.

EllieArroway · 19/04/2013 01:40

As is clear if we can agree to drop the daft attempt to split the world into species

Honestly, I think you're being a bit unfair to biologists and handing the creationists a "point" that they haven't actually won on this.

The problem identifying "species" is completely known, acknowledged and accounted for. Evolutionary theory predicts such a problem and the fact that there is such a problem in the first place supports evolutionary theory.

The word species is still used because it's part of a classification system that is still useful even when the edges become blurred. I don't think it's the case at all that there's an obstinate determination to hang on to an outdated idea.

Creationists think they've spotted a flaw when they point this out, which they clearly haven't. When it's explained to them, they stick their fingers in their ears and say "La la la" I'm not listening.

You have to compare this to their own baseless assertion that living things can be split into "kinds" - and this is fixed an unchangeable. If such a thing were true, there'd be no difficulty at all about defining a species/kind.

So being cross on behalf of the YECs because they pointed out that flaw and no one took any notice is a bit Hmm. Far from not taking any notice, the difficulties were actually identified and acknowledged by biologists themselves in the first place.

So, really, if there's anything "daft" going on, it's the creationists insisting that everything can be clearly split into "kinds" as predicted by Genesis.

ICBINEG · 19/04/2013 01:40

Yup I am pretty sure my undergrad physics had the universe down as 'highly likely to be infinite'.

And expanding faster all the time...(although that obvs can't make it infinite if it didn't start out that way).

EllieArroway · 19/04/2013 01:45

(although that obvs can't make it infinite if it didn't start out that way)

Aha! Yes. Can I ask you about this, please?

Whenever I talk to people about this, I always say, "But if it's getting bigger, how can it be infinite?"

Does this actually preclude infinity? Or is there some potential explanation?

Ta.

ICBINEG · 19/04/2013 01:46

ellie well I suppose so....but I don't understand what it adds to the classification system?

Surely the best way to organise stuff (if it actually needs organising!) is to talk about most recent common ancestor and genetic identity?

This physical characteristics guff is erm..guff....because often closely related (or even male and female version of the same thing) are less similar than unrelated things....

And actually I think it would remove a leg of the YEC argument to drop using 'species' as a term because then they could stop pointing out how the system is flawed.

Also are you seriously trying to tell me that there are more flaws in the YEC argument than in Biology? Bear in mind I know some biologists Grin.

ICBINEG · 19/04/2013 01:49

ellie The best way to think of this is as follows....

Imagine a ruler that is infinite in length (okay that might hurt a bit)...

But then stretch the ruler so that all of the 1 cm markings are 2 cm apart.

Clearly the ruler is still infinite in length.
Equally clearly, it is now twice as long...

And has certainly expanded.

If you try and do the same trick in 3D you are getting close to the universe version.

PedroYoniLikesCrisps · 19/04/2013 01:55

Pedro, please . . . think about what you are saying. I'm talking about predicting evidence before it is found - not before it occurs. If what you say is true, it would be impossible to predict anything about evolution since most of it happened before humans were even around.

That's correct, you can't predict anything about evolution which has occurred already because you cannot predict things which have already occurred. It's hardly a blunder on my part. You continually show a disastrous under standing of language.

ICBINEG · 19/04/2013 01:58

there are different forms of infinity.

Like the number of 1 cm spaced markings on an infinite ruler is infinite. But there are an infinite number of different possible length in between 1cm and 2cm....so the number of different possible length on an infinite ruler is substantially MORE infinite than the number of cm markings....

Check out 'aleph-one'...

NB. This doesn't have anything to do with whether or not our universe is infinite...and maybe I didn't give a direct answer to that one...

So, no there is no problem with the universe being both infinite and expanding.

EllieArroway · 19/04/2013 01:58

Also are you seriously trying to tell me that there are more flaws in the YEC argument than in Biology?

Yes! If a biologist does think differently, I'd be honestly interested to hear it.

The YECs would have a point if biologists were insisting that every living creature could be neatly put into a box according to "species". They are not, and never have done.

It may well need organising, like you say - but that it's recognised as a problem is without doubt. There are entire books written about the problem.

The YECs are constructing a strawman argument: "Ha ha - you biologists claim everything can be neatly divided into species. It can't - example blah blah blah. Therefore evolutionary theory is wrong".

How is this a good argument? Biologists are claiming no such thing. The system may be crap, but at least they know that! They're the ones that decided it was crap in the first place!

The YECs argument, we mustn't forget - is that ALL living things can be separated into "kinds". They can't, quite obviously.

So, I don't see how the YECs have won a point here.

EllieArroway · 19/04/2013 02:00

Ah - I get it. Thanks :)

ICBINEG · 19/04/2013 02:00

pedro to be fair the word 'predict' is often used in the following way.

We made a model based on our theory and it 'predicted' the salient experimental results.

The model predicts the results because it has no foreknowledge of them...maybe it is a shit / specialist use of language but the word 'predict' is genuinely used in this fashion.

I think you are right when you are talking about normal English language use, but scientific language uses the word differently.

ICBINEG · 19/04/2013 02:01

ellie oh dear you missed my sarcasm indicating smilie....

EllieArroway · 19/04/2013 02:03

ellie oh dear you missed my sarcasm indicating smilie....

Ha ha ha! Yes I did! Sorry. Few too many vodka and cokes this evening Blush

EllieArroway · 19/04/2013 03:57

Oh trust me, I do. Atheist misdefine it as believing in something without evidence - even in spite of the evidence. That is wrong. Most dictionaries say "without proof." Because science cannot provide absolute proof, faith is required. Again, to be precise, I call faith without evidence "blind faith." Blind faith is quite frankly stupid and irrational. Faith is trust based on evidence and it is completely rational. We could not live without it

Fine. Here's what you need to do - provide your evidence that your insane ideas about a young universe/earth are true?

Now, let's be very, very clear. Disproving evolutionary theory (if you could) would NOT, by default, suddenly prove that creationism were true. Do you fully understand at least this much?

It's important, so I'll say it again - we are NOT NOT NOT in an either/or situation. If evolution were disproved tomorrow, this would NOT mean that creationism must be true. It would simply mean that we'd be back at square one with a big mystery to solve. If evolution can't explain it, then what is the explanation for the diversity of life on Earth?

A hypothesis could be presented that it was God but like all hypotheses this would have to be supported by evidence.

All you have done on this thread is try (and fail miserably) to show a flaw in evolution and BB theory. In actuality, this is entirely irrelevant anyway to your assertion that there's evidence that God created the world in the way Genesis describes.

So, without any reference at all to evolution or BB theory (which according to you are wrong anyway so can be dismissed as evidence of anything) PLEASE PRESENT YOUR EVIDENCE THAT A SUPERNATURAL DESIGNER CREATED THE UNIVERSE AND EARTH, AND THAT THE BIBLE CAN BE RELIED ON FOR IT'S EXPLANATION OF HOW.

I want evidence that I can check and test, please.

I really doubt that you're capable of truly understanding what I've just said, so again - if evolution and BB theory are wrong, then they prove nothing. They therefore should not be mentioned when talking about evidence of how the world came to exist.

If your position is not blind faith, then you should be able to freely provide such evidence.

Blind faith is quite frankly stupid and irrational As is wilful ignorance, which you are displaying in bucket loads on this thread.

I know that. That's why I use his quotes. He believed in evolution so his criticism of the fossil record is more credible

Erm, no. He is not criticising the fossil record, he is saying that it shows
one mechanism of evolution better than another. To try and use this academic observation to try and support your own ridiculous claim that evolution predicts "millions and billions" of transitional fossils, but we don't have them therefore evolution is not true is blatant and shameless dishonesty.

You could mate with Neanderthals but they are a different species. (Creationists predicted that, by the way.)

Neanderthals? What Neanderthals? Oh - the sub species that existed 600,000 years ago? Those Neanderthals? Hmm Not that this has any relevance whatsoever to the point I was actually making.

No, I'm not assuming intelligent design. It's unnecessary here

Then you have not understood the implications of your own analogy. "Meaning" is imposed by an external factor - what external factor has imposed the "meaning" that can be changed by random mutations?

Sorry, perhaps I was unclear. Let me put it another way. The fossil record SHOULD be important evidence for evolution and was, in fact, predicted to be so. But because that prediction failed and the fossil record does not support evolution, they have to minimize it and say it is unimportant. That's what is really going on. Make sense now?

Well, it would if it was remotely true. It's not. The fossil record remains importance evidence of evolution. It's just not the be-all and end all.

Yes it is. Geneticists say that DNA is not just analogous to a code or language - it IS a code. (Hence the name "genetic code.") There is letters, words, grammar, syntax and information

They really don't, you know. A "code" in the strict sense of the word simply means a system of symbols designed to represent various things. These sentences I'm writing are a code using the symbols of the alphabet. A "code" is a system of communication and for that to make sense you need intelligent communicators.

Now, you could say that the exchange of information that is required throughout the universe in the forms of chemical reactions, and so forth, are based on a "code" - in so far as if X happens then Y will. If we sentiment beings recognised this pattern and then name them X and Y, then you sort of have a code. But all we're doing is creating a code to explain for ourselves the pattern we've recognised and using it to make predictions.

It's called the "Genetic code" because we've recognised the patterns within it and named them and produced our own code to explain them.

So, the "code" in DNA is as much a "code" on that level as the one that's needed to make dog shit brown.

Sorry but you are simply wrong here. I'm not saying there is meaning as in Divine purpose or anything. But if a strand of DNA is instructions to make a gene and a mutation occurs, most of the time it is benign, often it is harmful and rarely it is beneficial. In all known cases, even when a mutation is beneficial, it is still a broken gene with lost information. In the instance of bacterial resistance to antibiotics, it happens to help it to survive but the organism is actually less fit than before

But even "lost information" in that sense is new information - because it changes the gene. Why can't you understand that?

My son used to make a lot of Lego models. Let's say he completed one, but I removed a solitary brick. Now it's true that he would no longer have a complete Lego aeroplane, or whatever, but he would have a new "thing" that happened to be made of less bricks. By taking away a brick, I've added information in order to create a new model - an aeroplane made out of less bricks with a hole in the wing.

For your analogy to make sense, we have to conclude that the assemblage of Lego bricks was MEANT to be a complete aeroplane and that taking away a brick means that it's no longer what it's intended to be.

In my analogy, yes - that would be true. My son is an intelligent(ish) designer - he wanted a complete Lego aeroplane. But evolution isn't aiming for anything specific - a nose doesn't evolve because evolution wanted one, it's just how things ended up. Evolution has no goal - it is what it is.

Can you see?

BestValue · 19/04/2013 07:48

"It seems like you think that if you can find a hole in the definition of species then the only other option is YEC....."

Nope. Didn't say that. Don't feel that way. I don't remember how the issue of species came up but, like the speed of light issue, it got blown out of proportion. The Bible uses the word "kind" (which I previously defined) not "species" so that helps to address the apparent problem of where all the millions of species came from in just 6,000 years and how they fit on the ark.

BestValue · 19/04/2013 08:27

"ahh I see we scientists have been hiding this issue under the entirely misleading title 'the species problem'."

That's not really what I was getting at when I posted that definition. What I was highlighting, that I learned from you, is that they sometimes classify something as a different species if it's got slightly different DNA. It sounds like they ignore whether the two can actually interbreed and leave the false impression that evolution has happened when it has not.

I mentioned previously that Darwin's finches can all interbreed but they are classified as 14 different species. In my view this is downright dishonest because, again, it misleads people into thinking something has happened that hasn't. No wonder so many people believe it. There's a good expression that goes, "Most intelligent people believe in evolution because they are told that most intelligent people believe in evolution."

But don't give up on me, ICBINEG. I would really like to understand evolution the way you do. I appreciate your patience. I just need to see REAL evidence - not this crap I've been fed all the years.

BestValue · 19/04/2013 08:37

"They have a totally valid argument that evolution doesn't lead to animals that can easily be split up into different 'species'. The only problem is that the real world also doesn't have animals that can easily be split up into different 'species'. So the argument is one that biologist are daft and not one that YEC is correct."

I suppose this is where the 'species problem' comes in. Animals can't be split up easily into different species because it's a false classification. They CAN be easily split up into different "kinds." There is no evidence that the "kind" barrier has ever been crossed.

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