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Young Earth Creationists

1001 replies

PedroPonyLikesCrisps · 28/03/2013 18:57

I know Young Earth Creationists exist, I've seen them on telly, but never met one in real life, so I'm just wondering if anyone here is one or knows one or whether they are actually just incredibly rare and reserved for extreme tv debating!

OP posts:
ICBINEG · 18/04/2013 10:46

oh - okay.

What is all this business with the fossil record?

From my list of evolutionary steps it is clear that you should be able to find evidence of the steps in between parent P and the descendants of A, and evidence of the steps in between parent P and the descendants of B, but it not predicted that you would find evidence of steps linking the descendants of A to the descendants of B.

Or in human terms, you should be able to find the common ancestor of humans and monkeys (although it may be WAY back in time) and you should be able to connect humans to that ancestor and monkey to that ancestor but it is not predicted that you would find anything half way between a monkey and a human.

There is masses of evidence from the fossil record of the transitional states between humans and ancestors and monkeys and ancestors and in fact all vertebrates?

ICBINEG · 18/04/2013 10:50

best What is your definition of 'new information'?

Any mutation will be restricted to the amino acid code. So you could argue that an entirely new sequence of amino acids isn't new because it uses the same alphabet?

Lets take the protein sequence "AFYKILILKKQERYKWWHWCCV" which is a valid sequence but which I just made up.

I can guarantee that there is no example of this sequence out there in nature.

Is this a new sequence or just a reusing of old bits?

TheSmallPrint · 18/04/2013 10:57

I have an Australian friend who is YEC, very educated professional woman but absolutley does not believe in evolution.

bumbleymummy · 18/04/2013 11:00

Is she actually a YEC or does she just not believe in evolution?

ICBINEG · 18/04/2013 11:01

sorry - am getting wrapped up in information debate and actually I have no idea what relevance this might have to YEC.

In fact for that matter what is the problem that evolution causes YEC?

TheSmallPrint · 18/04/2013 11:01

She is a creationist whether that is the same as a YEC I'm not entirely sure.

ICBINEG · 18/04/2013 11:04

Okay I just realised how stupid my question was Blush

YEC believe that god made the animals the way they were. In order to support that hypothesis they need to destroy the more obvious hypothesis that the animals were made by chance and enormous amounts of time.

But doesn't that mean that best should have a problem with one of the step of evolution which I wrote? I mean if the process works then we don't need God to be involved at all?

BestValue · 18/04/2013 11:06

"Well I thought if I broke it into steps we could examine which ones cause the problems with respect to validation of the theory as a whole more easily."

Okay. Let me ask a few questions.

"5.Cells have their own error checking protocols, so catastrophic mistakes can be corrected."

Beneficial mutations are often the correcting of mistakes, right? As one guy put it, it's like punching somebody with a dislocated arm in the shoulder and accidentally putting his arm back in the socket.

"Once the difference between the genetic codes of the descendants of A and the descendants of B are sufficiently different, an arbitrary line can be drawn and the descendants of A and B are considered to be different species from each other, with a common ancestor (parent P)."

What do you mean here by "an arbitrary line can be drawn"? And you didn't even mention about their ability to interbreed. Are you telling me they are just going by comparisons of the DNA now and if they are significantly different enough from each other they call them a new species? If so, that's ridiculous - and dishonest. (Not you, them.)

"Conclusion: This is the process of evolution. We started with one code, produced two new species, lost any versions of the code that were incompatible with survival, and one species, via a large number of very small steps, evolved into a second more successful species."

Your conclusion is sound and I follow all the steps. But it doesn't seem like any real evolution took place. No inability to interbreed. No new organs or body parts. To go from an amoeba to a man you have to get instructions to created a lot of parts that didn't previously exist. Some researchers say that at the currently observed mutation rate there simply has not been enough time even in 4.6 billion years to do that.

BestValue · 18/04/2013 11:15

"From my list of evolutionary steps it is clear that you should be able to find evidence of the steps in between parent P and the descendants of A, and evidence of the steps in between parent P and the descendants of B, but it not predicted that you would find evidence of steps linking the descendants of A to the descendants of B."

No, of course not. I wouldn't expect that. I don't have a huge problem with the fossil record. It's just that it has trillions of fossils with few supposed transitions when the exact opposite should be true. Fewwer fossils with more of them as transitions.

It's not something that by itself would cause me to reject evolution. It's just one of the evidences I thought supported evolution and now I think it doesn't. If you have, say, 20 major pieces of evidence and nearly every one gets discredited and they all end up supporting another model that explains those 20 even better plus many more, you're going to tend to go with the better model.

ICBINEG · 18/04/2013 11:23

5. Beneficial mutations are often the correcting of mistakes, right? As one guy put it, it's like punching somebody with a dislocated arm in the shoulder and accidentally putting his arm back in the socket.

Yes I would agree with that. The fact that after all of this time it is still possible to make an improvement to the function of an enzyme etc. is a result of the fact that changes are making it ever so slightly less efficient at broadly the same rate.

What do you mean here by "an arbitrary line can be drawn"? And you didn't even mention about their ability to interbreed. Are you telling me they are just going by comparisons of the DNA now and if they are significantly different enough from each other they call them a new species? If so, that's ridiculous - and dishonest. (Not you, them.)

As far as I know the positioning of the species boundaries is arbitrary by necessity. If I am a different species from my distant ancestor then I could not bread with them. But in order for me to exist, interbreeding must broadly have been possible for all of the intervening time period. It is unlikely that a change will happen that is so dramatic that a parent could not breed with their own child (yuck - I know sorry). But the drift might mean that my great to the power n grandfather could not breed with my great to the power n grand daughter. So where do you draw the species differention line? Is it on me? Cause I could definitely have breed with either my father or son (yuck again)!

When you are looking across between different genetic lines derived from the same parent it is slightly easier. Humans cant breed with monkeys. (although they must have transitional ancestors that could interbreed.

Your conclusion is sound and I follow all the steps. But it doesn't seem like any real evolution took place. No inability to interbreed. No new organs or body parts. To go from an amoeba to a man you have to get instructions to created a lot of parts that didn't previously exist. Some researchers say that at the currently observed mutation rate there simply has not been enough time even in 4.6 billion years to do that.

Sorry to be grim again but children are born with extra limbs etc. It can come out of small changes very rarely. I guess the obvious example of organ generation is making an eye. If you have cells, you can make them light sensitive with very small changes to their code (we do this with bacteria sometimes), if this change happened in an organism rather than a cell then you would have the start of an eye. So if you are imagining the construction of a whole new sense organ in one go then it is indeed fantastically unlikely. If you are looking for the even that leads to light sensing then it is quite common.

From a light sensing cell to an eye is just a process of time.

I think I would agree that the probability of randomly inserting a whole eye in one go into a code that contained no such thing is certainly so small that it would not even have happened once in 4.6 billion years. But the process can take a shorter, easier and certainly quicker route by summing up billions of small changes (at 1 a year if necessary) and still make it in that time frame with oddles to spare.

As a final thought on speed....the rate of mutations is wildly different between different types of organisms and even the same organism in different environments. It would be a mistake to extrapolate the rate of mutation seen in the lab now to the rate present back in the mists of time....

BestValue · 18/04/2013 11:28

Wow! I'm really starting to see how people get sucked in. It's all smoke and mirrors with no evidence but they can claim evolution happened just by the way they define it. It's really making me lose faith in humanity. Please tell me they have NOT redefined species (again) to be just a difference in a certain amount of DNA. That's unconscionable.

BestValue · 18/04/2013 11:48

OMG! You ARE saying that!

"In biology, a species (plural: species) is one of the basic units of biological classification and a taxonomic rank. A species is often defined as a group of organisms capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring. While in many cases this definition is adequate, the difficulty of defining species is known as the species problem. Differing measures are often used, such as "SIMILARITY OF DNA," morphology or ecological niche."

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species

Please tell me I am wrong! If not, I have just gone from a passive rejector of evolution to a rabid, anti-evolutionist! That is s-o-o-o-o dishonest I can't even believe it!

backonlybriefly · 18/04/2013 12:07

Fine tuning I think there is a misunderstanding with that. I'm not sure I can put it any clearer, but will have a go.

If the only way for humans to exist is for the universe to be how it is now then that doesn't mean it was made that way to suit us. That idea starts by assuming that someone or something was planning to introduce humans and needed to make a universe fit for them.

IF someone INTENDED for humans to exist then they would have to CREATE a suitable universe, but you must start by assuming a creator and that humans were the purpose of that universe existing.

It makes more sense to note that everything that exists now will be compatible with the current universe or it wouldn't exist.

If the laws of this universe meant that all that could exist were large clouds of pink gas then a hypothetical observer might say "See!, God must have created this universe on purpose or it wouldn't be full of large clouds of pink gas. You don't get clouds of pink gas with any old universe. It has to be finely tuned"

PedroYoniLikesCrisps · 18/04/2013 12:10

Your invoking the Strong Anthropic Principle. Very, very unlikely. Read the article. You'll see why the fine-tuning is a problem. And you'll see why the only options are a multi-verse or God.

I'm certainly not invoking the strong anthropic principle as it appears to be defined in this article. That suggests that the universe knew we were coming. No, I don't think that at all.

What I know is that if the laws of physics were different, we wouldn't be here (and I think we all agree on that). So necessarily, the laws of physics must be as they are for us to be here. Call it coincidence if you like, but we simply wouldn't be around to have the debate if it weren't true.

Multiple universes are not a necessary extension of this position. They are one suggestion. There is also suggestion of many very small dimensions (string theory) or even that we are just lucky to be here because this is how the universe happens to be. With different physics we might even be here in a completely different form. Who nows. But you cannot argue that there are too many coincidences for things to be random, because they simply must be that way.

IsletsOfLangerhans · 18/04/2013 12:12

Nobody has 'redefined' species. There are many different species concepts around, all routinely debated by free-thinking scientists - have you not come across these in your 6 years of reading?

ICBINEG · 18/04/2013 12:13

Best calm down!

Can you explain to me why the concept of a 'species' is important for the process of evolution being a mechanism capable of describing the world we see around us?

Personally I find the idea of species to be out dated and irrelevant but that doesn't mean that the only way to explain the world as we see it is to appeal to god?

It seems like you think that if you can find a hole in the definition of species then the only other option is YEC.....

IsletsOfLangerhans · 18/04/2013 12:14

It's all smoke and mirrors with no evidence but they can claim evolution happened just by the way they define it

And isn't this exactly what you are doing with your YEC theory?

ICBINEG · 18/04/2013 12:14

is well yes that's what I think.

The concept of different species only makes sense when you look at the individuals present in a snapshot of time.

When you are trying to determine which of your ancestors were the same species or a different species it breaks down completely.

But discarding the idea of species altogether would not damage evolution as a principle as far as I can see.

ICBINEG · 18/04/2013 12:31

I might be wrong about this....but didn't Darwin himself think that the concept of 'species' was dodgy? Or was it just that 'fish' turns out to be a bad box heading when subdividing?

Either way the task at hand is whether YEC or 'science' has the more plausible explanation for world as we see it. The fact the science now has a better explanation that it did 100, 10 or even 1 year ago doesn't seem to lend any weight to the YEC claim. Presumably YEC have also improved their arguments and definitions etc in order to better explain the world and to adapt to new knowledge as it emerges.

The comparison should be between the best of YEC and the best of 'science'. What either of them had to say in the past is surely irrelevant?

ICBINEG · 18/04/2013 12:38

ahh I see we scientists have been hiding this issue under the entirely misleading title 'the species problem'.

Which can be summed up as: it is hard to split all of life into boxes that are not overlapped in some way.

Well no shit sherlock!

This is the difference between biologists and physicists....

Physicists had a similar problem with objects that sometimes behaved like waves and sometimes like particles...so we said oh well spliting things into waves and particles is clearly a shit way to proceed. We will stop thinking of them as one or other and treat them as what that actually are.

Biologists discover they can't actually easily split life up into neat boxes and so bitch about needing better boxes....

Why not just admit it is a continuum? That is what the evolutionary process predicts it actually is!

noblegiraffe · 18/04/2013 12:56

The language used to describe evolution doesn't affect whether evolution is true or not, how can it?

Isn't the difficulty in distinguishing between separate species because there isn't a clear dividing line between them an argument in favour of evolution. If there is a continuum of change in some places, then aren't those your required 'transitional fossils' right there, just living and breathing rather than fossilised?

ICBINEG · 18/04/2013 13:04

noble well that is my reading of it certainly.

Evolution predicts a continuum, not boxed off regions...reality shows us that creatures sit on a continuum and not in neat boxes....so I can't imagine why biologists cling to the idea of boxes when it just doesn't describe reality well....and doesn't match with the current best theory of evolution.

I think the analogy to waves/particles in physics is good....we dropped that years ago because it just doesn't describe reality well....and none of the theories predicted that there should be a dividing line....

Januarymadness · 18/04/2013 13:18

I despair.. I would hate to be on a jury with you best. It would be something like this.

Defendant A. Caught on CCTV, DNA at the scene and dropped his id with fingerprints at the scene.

Dodgy expert with a vested intrest in getting A off comes in and says well it is possible defendant A has An identical twin he doesnt know about with the same name and no record of birth.

Rest of Jury - guilty! what do you takr us for.

Best - Not guilty. I have the same vested interest as dodgy expert so dodgy expert must be right.

backonlybriefly · 18/04/2013 13:18

I like the image of a continuum. I suppose I knew it was really, but the way you think about animals is set in childhood.

"... Is that my cow? It goes baa baa, it is not my cow, it is a sheep!" :)

And the divisions are still useful of course so we can avoid petting tigers and trying to get a saddle on a goldfish.

Januarymadness · 18/04/2013 13:24

also at least of the arguments on your list that would prove you wrong would be impossible to find significant evidence for so you know you are on to a winner.

If bones were found that were thought to belong to Jesus Christ there would be no way of substantiating the claim. There is no known traceable matralineal line that we could use to corroborate the claim. If we could not say these bones belonged to Jesus Christ we could not prove Jesus had 2 human parents.

Basically its like saying if you can show me a diamond made of nitrogen I will believe you. By definition it isnt possible.

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