Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Young Earth Creationists

1001 replies

PedroPonyLikesCrisps · 28/03/2013 18:57

I know Young Earth Creationists exist, I've seen them on telly, but never met one in real life, so I'm just wondering if anyone here is one or knows one or whether they are actually just incredibly rare and reserved for extreme tv debating!

OP posts:
Januarymadness · 14/04/2013 11:41

back on, while agree with large parts of what you are saying I do think it unfair to demand atheim. Although science has provided good evidence that literal interpretation of religious books is a bad idea it has shown no evidence that God or Gods dont exist.

That, ay least at the moment is down to personal belief.

backonlybriefly · 14/04/2013 13:08

Actually agree about demanding atheism. All I demand really is that religion not be forced on me. Unfortunately in the UK it's hard to avoid it.

But it is true that everyone is Atheist for most gods. Ask a devout Catholic how they feel about Zeus or one of the old Sun Gods and they will almost certainly treat the idea of worshipping them with contempt. They won't feel they need proof that Mithra doesn't exist because "it's just obvious".

Januarymadness · 14/04/2013 14:15

I get your point but the terminology is wrong. Atheism is without the belief in any God and Theism is the belief in one or many Gods. Those terms exist outside of religion so someone who believes in any God cannot be Atheist.

Sorry to seem like a pedant. But it bugs me that because I dont identify as being part of a particular religion I must be Atheist. I am NOT. I belive in God I just dont believe everything any religion tells me.

noblegiraffe · 14/04/2013 14:38

If you start with the Bible you get YEC, true, but you get all sorts of other nonsense too. Do you subscribe to it all?

backonlybriefly · 14/04/2013 15:39

Januarymadness, Fair enough. Yours is a relatively rare position anyway if you are open to all possibilities. Most people have separated out the 'proper' gods from the obviously fake ones that they will reject and by doing so justified the atheist attitude to their choice.

TheDeadlyDonkey · 14/04/2013 15:39

I've just found this thread and thoroughly enjoyed reading it.
Forgive me for asking a very stupid question (most of the sciencey/speed of light posts have sadly gone over my head)

If you believe the bible is an accurate version of events, and base the 6-10 thousand year old earth on this, where do dinosaurs come in to the equation?
You (meaning Best here) have mentioned dinosaurs in relation to C-14, "fresh" bones being discovered etc., yet there is no mention of dinosaurs in the bible?
Were they an accidental creation that no-one talked about? Was the ark too small to fit them on?

Where were the dinosaurs?

(I'm aware this ^^ comes across as jokey, but I would genuinely like to hear your thoughts on this :))

Januarymadness · 14/04/2013 16:18

This is slightly off topic and probably worth a thread of its own. I don't think my position is really that rare. For me it is a question of identity.

Take, just for example christianity, there are people who have looked into it and signed up because their beliefs totally coinside. There are others, however, who have either not given much thought to, or deep down completely reject, bits that are fundimental to that religion. Like Jesus being the literal rather than figurative son of God. These people would probably still tick the Christian box on a census and would ultimately identify themselves as such.

I have lost count of the number of people who have told me they believe in a Deity but they are not sure about the rest.

People are not very likely to positively identify as a liberal theist because few know what the term means. A large proportion of those who do know wouldnt use the term because it is not a recognisable identity and it may separate them from their cultural identity of Christian or Catholic etc...

Januarymadness · 14/04/2013 16:19

Good question deadlydonkey

PedroYoniLikesCrisps · 14/04/2013 18:00

Although science has provided good evidence that literal interpretation of religious books is a bad idea it has shown no evidence that God or Gods don't exist.

I still find it bizarre that theists use this argument when science is quite clear about the fact that it can never prove the non existence of anything, let alone a god.

What's more telling, however, is that no religious book has ever proved the existence of a god. And frankly, that's their job, so they haven't done very well. they've

Januarymadness · 14/04/2013 18:15

My argument is that without any tangible evidence for or against something you have to ask yourself the question "what do I instinctively believe /have faith in?". The belief in the absence of a deity is as much of a gut instinct choice as belief is.

In the absence of tangible evidence I wouldn't want to try to convince an atheist to believe something that goes against their instincts. I don't see why anyone should try to convince me to go agaist mine.

The unreliable religious books is somewhat of a red herring. If you dont subscribe to a religion subscribing to a religious book would just be silly.

Januarymadness · 14/04/2013 18:29

My reasons for belief are many, varied and personal. None originate from any religious text.

on another note.

I would like to quote something I saw on Family Guy last night, though off topic it is funny.

Peter Griffin is filming a plastic bag floating in the wind and is waxing lyrical about it's beauty.

Cut to God on a cloud saying
"That is trash blowing in the wind... Do you have ANY idea how complicated your circulatory system is!"

PedroYoniLikesCrisps · 14/04/2013 19:03

My argument is that without any tangible evidence for or against something you have to ask yourself the question "what do I instinctively believe /have faith in?". The belief in the absence of a deity is as much of a gut instinct choice as belief is.

Actually it's not. When you have an absence of evidence for something it's far more logical not to believe it exists. That's not to say it doesn't, but the two positions are from equal.

backonlybriefly · 14/04/2013 19:20

"I don't see why anyone should try to convince me to go against mine"

No need to try if you are not part of an organised religion bent on forcing others to do things your way or arguing for special privileges or exemptions from the law.

However when you say "The belief in the absence of a deity is as much of a gut instinct choice as belief is" that certainly would be true, but personally I don't believe that god doesn't exist.

It's not a matter of faith you see. In the sense of "knowing something is true without evidence" I have no beliefs at all. I don't believe New York exists. I have never been there, but its existence is filed under "probably true" because I have lots of overlapping evidence to suggest it's there.

My atheism is simply what you'd feel if I showed you a sealed box and asked you what was in it. Since you don't know you're probably say "I don't know". It would be foolish to suddenly have faith that it contained a lemon without some reason to think so.

PedroYoniLikesCrisps · 14/04/2013 19:23

It would be foolish to suddenly have faith that it contained a lemon without some reason to think so.

Unless you really wanted a lemon and prayed for god to put one in there......does he do that kind of thing?

backonlybriefly · 14/04/2013 19:26

Just to be clear. Belief in either direction would be irrational, but logic requires you not to file god under 'real' unless there is evidence so the choice is not 50/50. Without evidence atheism is the default.

backonlybriefly · 14/04/2013 19:30

If it's a sealed iron box than god can't get inside anyway. For the same reason he can't win a battle against enemies with iron chariots :)

Judges 1:19

Januarymadness · 14/04/2013 20:20

The New York analogy is a good one. I believe in something, God for want of a better word, because I see evidence in the natural world and universe. What I see and my reasoning leads me to have faith in a greater power. You have no evidence to show me I am wrong. I am not trying to convince anyone else (the reason why I am not giving list and details as to why I hold these beliefs). Atheists trying to push me into thinking how they do is the same as any religion trying to make me think how they do. I have my own thought and reasoning I will believe what I like.

PedroYoniLikesCrisps · 14/04/2013 20:31

I don't think anyone is trying to push you to become an atheist. We're presenting our argument and you are presenting yours. Same difference.

EllieArroway · 14/04/2013 22:26

BestValue I could pick apart absolutely everyone of your "arguments", but I don't have time - let's look just at the scientific mistakes you've made:

As you might not be aware, carbon dating is only used to date fossils up to about 50,000 years old. Beyond that, there should be no measurable carbon14 left. Yet, there has never been a fossil that didn't have some amount of carbon 14 left - indicating they are not millions of years old

A big, big mistake here - detectable and measurable are not necessarily the same thing. No measurable C-14 has been found in fossils or fossil fuels, but some has been detected. There?s many and various reasons for this - but to suggest that NONE should be detectable is nonsense. There will be some due to the nature of it?s formation and decomposition - but it?s no longer measurable so can?t be used for dating purposes.

Your understanding of the fossil record is also desperately flawed. You are right in that fossils do not form readily, they need special and specific conditions in order to form at all (that?s why the vast, vast, vast, vast majority of creatures that have existed have left no record of themselves at all) but a worldwide flood is not one of them. The clue is in the phrase ?worldwide?. Such an event would affect every living thing in every part of the world - this clearly and obviously is not what has happened. Fossils form in a variety of ways, but it?s very rare that it should happen at all. This does not suggest that a global catastrophe that happened everywhere at once is in any way responsible for fossils.

Further, if evolution were true we would expect to find many
transitional fossils
And we do. Every fossil ever found is ?transitional?. Know why? Because every single creature that has ever existed (including you and me) is ?transitional?. If I dropped dead in a peat bog tomorrow and fossilised, I?d be dug up as a transitional fossil. Not to understand this is, I?m sorry, not to understand evolutionary theory at all.

Willard Libby, who won a Nobel prize for inventing the carbon14 dating method, knew that in order for his system to work the earth's atmosphere had to be at equilibrium. (No time to explain this now. I'd love to explain the whole dating method thing, how it works and its assumptions at a later date because it's fun to talk about.)
Libby calculated that if you started with a brand new earth/sun system, our atmosphere would reach equilibrium in about 30,000 years. He thought because we know the earth is billions of years old (can't recall if they'd arrived at the 4.54 billion figure yet but I don't think so) the earth's atmosphere MUST be at equilibrium and he could ignore the equilibrium problem.
The fact is that we have since measured and discovered the atmosphere is only ONE THIRD of the way to equilibrium. What's one third of 30,000? 10,000 years. So the implications for carbon 14 dating are this:
*1. The earth/sun system is less than 10,000 years old and

  1. Carbon14 dating doesn't work*

Right. This is what happens when you swallow whole what creationists say without taking the trouble to learn the science behind it.

Equilibrium WOULD be reached in 30,000 years IF the amount of input & loss of C-14 in the atmosphere were equal and consistent. They are not - the production and decay rate fluctuate wildly. If you take this into account (as you have singularly failed to do) you?ll see that this argument is baseless and completely wrong.

CoteDAzur, "fossils, diamonds, and coral reefs" (including dinosaur bones) all still have carbon left in them which strongly indicates that they are only thousands of years old, not millions Bull. There are DETECTABLE amounts of C-14, not MEASURABLE amounts. A big difference that you seem unable to grasp.

Because the majority of the process of evolution takes place in the past, it can never rightly be called a scientific fact

Really? A ?fact? points to the truth of something. It?s a fact that every one of my ancestors had sex at least once in their lives. I wasn?t there to see it and it all happened in the past - but my existence PROVES the fact of it. We are in the same sort of place with evolution - we don?t need to see it with our own eyes to know that it happened. Evidence comes to us in many forms.

You have fallen, it seems, into the microevolution vs macroevolution trap. They are in essence two stages of the same thing - the ONLY people who make this distinction are creationists, real scientists do not. A long journey begins with one step (microevolution) it concludes with a zillion steps having been taken - the effect of macroevolution. Microevolution + time = macroevolution. What mechanism exists, do you think, to stop those tiny steps building into a journey, the end result of which is macroevolution?

But the grander claims of macroevolutiion and common ancestry have very little factual support. What apologists for evolution like Dawkins must do is claim that macroevolution is just microevolution over time. That's a nice belief but I don't have that much faith. Further, the "evolution" we see in bacterial resistance is not the kind of change we need in order to turn an amoeba into a man over millions of years

You don?t need faith, you just need to bother looking at the evidence - which is immense.

Macroevolution is another word for evolution above the species level, yes? Also known as speciation. This HAS been observed, quite a lot. How have you missed it?

And what kind of change do you think we should see to turn an ?amoeba into a man?? It could only happen in tiny, incremental steps - that's what evolution is.

I?m slightly losing the will to live here - you?ve managed to get everything wrong so far. But I?ll address one more thing:

The speed of light has been slowing down for the past two centuries we've measured it. And Harvard University has slowed and even stopped light in the laboratory 13 years ago. So maybe the speed of light is not a constant. If it were faster in the past, the light could reach earth in less time

This is just bonkers - where are you getting this tripe?
No, the speed of light has not been slowing down. Our measurements over the past 200 years have gotten better! And sorry - but of course we can slow down and stop light! Light speed remains constant only IN A VACUUM - there are all sorts of ways of slowing it down and stopping it. Good grief!

In the creationist's theory of cosmology, if the universe had an edge and the earth were at or near the centre, earth would be in a "gravitational well" and time would tick slower here than at the edge of the universe. Thus, 13.72 billion years could pass out there while a mere 6,000 years passed here on earth

There's no evidence whatsoever that the universe has an "edge" or that we are at or near the centre in the bottom of a gravitational well. If this were true, we would expect to see blue-shifted light instead of the red-shifted that we do see. The red-shifted light that we see is in line with an expanding universe as predicted by Hubble's Law.

Sounds crazy but such is science. That's not science, that's utter rubbish that has been refuted again and again and again.

EllieArroway · 14/04/2013 22:37

You have no evidence to show me I am wrong

It's amazing how often this is presented - it's the most logically flawed argument of all.

No - there's no evidence to show that your God doesn't exist (or any god).

Know why? Because in order to prove anything, including existence & non-existence, you need evidence. Evidence is the building blocks of proof.

Things that don't exist leave no trail of evidence, so what do you use to prove it doesn't exist?

As an atheist, I would not expect to be able to disprove your God any more than I can disprove the Flying Spaghetti Monster or invisible unicorns.

So, really, the fact that we can't (and freely admit that we can't) disprove your God's existence is rather massively in favour of our contention that this is because no such being exists.

Januarymadness · 14/04/2013 23:26

hey you know you are right I just think I am...I am open to the possibility I might be wrong. Things I see as evidence others will see as chance or nature or whatever. I have evidence enough for me. Really what I think doesnt matter to anyone but me.

Januarymadness · 14/04/2013 23:29

if someone believes in invisible unicorns. They have their reasons for doing so. Those reasons arent based on manipulation or bad science and they are not trying to make others believe. I say let em carry on. What harm are they doing to anyone.

EllieArroway · 14/04/2013 23:34

hey you know you are right I just think I am...I am open to the possibility I might be wrong

Please don't do that - it's a rude misrepresentation of what I said.

I, too, am open to the possibility that I am wrong. All I ask is for some evidence - as you would do in absolutely every other area of your life.

Really what I think doesnt matter to anyone but me. OK. So, why are you getting sniffy with me for pointing out the flaw in your logic (a very, very common one) by trying to imply that you're somehow more open minded than me?

You're not, as it happens.

BestValue · 15/04/2013 04:50

Here's an entire free chapter of a book explaining, from a young earth creationist's point of view, how who can see distant star light in a young universe.

creation.com/images/pdfs/cabook/chapter5.pdf

EllieArroway · 15/04/2013 05:10

I prefer real science books written by real scientists, thanks.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.
Swipe left for the next trending thread