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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

Atheists - is there anything about faith that appeals to you, would you like to believe?

410 replies

Italiangreyhound · 27/03/2013 10:51

Hi, I've been reading a few threads and I've heard atheists say stuff in the past about belief in God. Stuff like they don't believe in God but they would like to or they can see why it would maybe give peace or would be nice etc. I am just curious how atheists feel a bout this and if they want to talk about it?

I am a Christian, I hope I am an open and tolerant person and I would not want to cause offence. I am just curious, as we come into Easter if anyone wants to chat about this.

If not, may I wish you a peaceful and happy Easter, even if all it means to you is some chocolate eggs.

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seeker · 27/03/2013 22:19

"Other examples ...people losing their jobs for wearing crosses or having convictions that go against political correctness. People pushing for euthanasia to become an acceptable part of working within the NHS which if it happened would lead to thousands of religious doctors and nurses having to consider quitting their jobs because their work would go against their religious beliefs... That sort of thing."

That sort of thing. Christians being asked to comply with the law of the land like everyone else, you mean?

Italiangreyhound · 27/03/2013 22:22

Seeker I am sorry too, I did not mean to assume it was true but I felt it would cause less offence to assume it was true than not. And of course it is true for some people. Terrible things happen all the time and I am afraid I have few answers for those things.

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Rowlers · 27/03/2013 22:23

Re-reading the OP's original post, I've always been sceptical of this idea that belief in god of some sort somehow gives "peace". What does this mean? I've got questions I don't know the answers to, I can get "god" etc to sort of answer these, therefore I can now stop thinking about it and have "peace"? I can see the attraction of it, and, as a lot of posters have pointed out, it is often coming to terms with death which awakens these feelings. But for me, it does not give sufficient "peace" - the pain of grief is in no way diminished by the possibility of "god". It's just a fact of life we (I) need to accept and come to terms with.
(Also, I have a big issue with the term "truth" bandied around in religious dscussions)

MrsHoarder · 27/03/2013 22:30

Pdero:
What about all the other major steps in human society which have broken the moulds of outdated religious beliefs such as slavery, equal rights for women, etc?

The abolition of slavery in the UK was spearheaded by Wilberforce, an enthusiastic non-conformist. Of course this could be an example of how important it is to get away from the establishment religions, but I quite like it as an example of faith moving someone to do good. Or George Muller improving the lives of hundreds (thousands?) of orphans in Bristol in early Victorian times.

But aside from the really inspirational characters who dedicate their entire lives to changing the world with their faith, I'm not sure what religion adds to society. There will be art without it.

MrsHoarder · 27/03/2013 22:33

Rowlers I have always wanted to believe in a plan and a God who will not test me with more than I can bear. This isn't an unusual desire, to seek meaning in suffering rather than assume it is just painful random chance.

The flip side to this is that I don't feel anyone is angry at me when something tragic happens, it is just sheer dumb bad luck.

Quodlibet · 27/03/2013 22:41

I am an atheist through and through.
I recently suffered a miscarriage and one of the things I have struggled with is making room for the process of mourning my loss in my life, a time and space to acknowledge it. I found myself walking past the church this morning with Easter services advertised and thinking how, for people of faith, specific times of the year to come together and somehow commune over the processes and cycles of life and death must actually be a very healthy thing to do. This is something I think I feel is maybe missing from secular life. It's something I find in art and creative practice, but it isn't woven into the annual fabric of life in the same way as, say, Easter is for Christians.
(I hope that makes sense).

Italiangreyhound · 27/03/2013 22:42

Seeker I don't take the Bible literally, and believe every word is literally true. I can say of those passages you mentioned. Well, let me show you ... I am sorry this is very long and I expect it was not what you wanted really....

According to BibleGateway.com John 14 13-14 in the NIV (New International Version) says (I'm including verses 11 and 12 because it gives a bit of context, hope that is OK)...

"11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it."

And in the Message (a slightly funkier more in the talk of the day - about 1993 to 2002 - version)

11-14 ?Believe me: I am in my Father and my Father is in me. If you can?t believe that, believe what you see?these works. The person who trusts me will not only do what I?m doing but even greater things, because I, on my way to the Father, am giving you the same work to do that I?ve been doing. You can count on it. From now on, whatever you request along the lines of who I am and what I am doing, I?ll do it. That?s how the Father will be seen for who he is in the Son. I mean it. Whatever you request in this way, I?ll do.

So to me that is talking about doing things in a spiritual way, I know that you may find that a total cop out, but that is how I would read it.

I am using two versions as it gives a slightly different flavour and hopefully one is easier to understand.

Matthew 7 7. Can I add a few more verses to give it context, please?

NIV "7 ?Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.

9 ?Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! 12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.."

and The Message ...

7-11 ?Don?t bargain with God. Be direct. Ask for what you need. This isn?t a cat-and-mouse, hide-and-seek game we?re in. If your child asks for bread, do you trick him with sawdust? If he asks for fish, do you scare him with a live snake on his plate? As bad as you are, you wouldn?t think of such a thing. You?re at least decent to your own children. So don?t you think the God who conceived you in love will be even better?

12 ?Here is a simple, rule-of-thumb guide for behaviour: Ask yourself what you want people to do for you, then grab the initiative and do it for them. Add up God?s Law and Prophets and this is what you get.?

I think this is also talking in spiritual terms about knocking on the door, asking and receiving God's love and forgiveness etc. Anyway that's what the commentary I saw said. I like the way it ends, ?Ask yourself what you want people to do for you, then grab the initiative and do it for them.? Yes, the church could do a lot more of this.

Finally,

Matthew 21 22.

In The Message "21-22 But Jesus was matter-of-fact: ?Yes?and if you embrace this kingdom life and don?t doubt God, you?ll not only do minor feats like I did to the fig tree, but also triumph over huge obstacles. This mountain, for instance, you?ll tell, ?Go jump in the lake,? and it will jump. Absolutely everything, ranging from small to large, as you make it a part of your believing prayer, gets included as you lay hold of God.?

and NIV says similar "21 Jesus replied, ?Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ?Go, throw yourself into the sea,? and it will be done. 22 If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.?

Do I honestly think Jesus was saying we could have faith that would move a mountain physically, I don't, I think it was a kind of picture image.

Anyway, I know that it doesn?t make a lot of sense to some but that is how I interpret these verses, not that I can literally ask for anything and God will deliver it. I mean there are a lot of wonderful and great things people could ask for and I understand how difficult it is to think of these things in a spiritual way.

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Rowlers · 27/03/2013 22:48

You see, that's another thing, that Dot Cotton quoting the bible thing, that's partly really impressive, partly really scary! (sorry Italian, no offence!!!)
For me, it's quite off-putting. I have a terrible memory for qoutes etc. I think if I were religious, I'd have a permanent inferiority complex. Grin

Italiangreyhound · 27/03/2013 22:55

I don't want to get in the middle of a bun fight but just wanted to send un-mumsnetty hugs to one and all. We are all discussing, it is nice, let's not be offended, let's be grateful we have the right to discuss in freedom.

Pedro I'd like to see you with that colendar on your head! (Please throw no buns).

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Italiangreyhound · 27/03/2013 22:57

Rowlers no offence taken. It was in response to seeker - Miss Rowlers she made me do it!

Yes, it looks over the top and proper nut job, three Bible passages, two vesions of each! Really I am normal though.

Rowlers it's the power of the internet, if I were looking it up I would still be doing it!

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Rowlers · 27/03/2013 22:59

Absolutely, Italian. And may I wish you Happy Easter? Smile

Rowlers · 27/03/2013 23:00

And if there is bun throwing,may they be hot and cross.

pianomama · 27/03/2013 23:01

Quodlibet - that was the best post on this thread. I am so sorry for your loss.
To me the faith and church is not even about the belonging to community, it is exactly what you said - a place where you can "commune over processes of life and death" .

Italiangreyhound · 27/03/2013 23:02

MrsHiddleston can I ask in a totally unoffensive way, you said about the world being a Utopia without religion. The concept of no religion is a very new one, (I think) so for centuries there have been religions. So it is very hard to quite imagine with no religion how it would all have panned out. Would Spain have gone and plundered Latin America if it did not have the church and the spread of Christianity to hide behind, I think they would. And although soem conflicts are genuinely religious ones (and yes very shameful for that reason and for other reasons too) I think that there would have been the same cruel actions around the globe in many places.

For example communism, especially China, Mao did a lot of harm with no religion involved.

I am just curious does this mean you don't belive in God because you don't beileve or because you don't want to? That is a genuine question and not meant to be offensive.

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Italiangreyhound · 27/03/2013 23:05

Green Just wanted to send you a smile, you are debating lots of interesting things too.

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greencolorpack · 27/03/2013 23:07

Thank you, that's very kind, same to you, :)

edam · 27/03/2013 23:09

I think you'll find religion did a great deal of harm in China - Mao and Sun Yat Sen were reacting against that. The Christian nations of the West don't have a great deal to be proud of there - look up the opium wars and weep at the behaviour of our ancestors! Mao was an evil dictator but it is madness to claim 'atheist bad, religious good' when you look at the political and social complexities of China in his day and in the lead up to his day.

Italiangreyhound · 27/03/2013 23:12

Quodlibet I am so sorry for your loss. I had a misscariage too many years ago and I found there are many wonderful ways of kind of marking that sad passing like planting a flower or a tree etc. Visiting a tree or a wood etc.

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Italiangreyhound · 27/03/2013 23:17

Edam I am not claiming athiest bad religion good for China, but I do think the opinum wars were about greed and money and not about God. I think God has been used as a convenient 'excuse' to go into places and do what people want to do. My point was that even without religion people can do bad - religion does not automatically make people behave well (sadly) and athiesm doesn't automatically make people behave badly.

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Italiangreyhound · 27/03/2013 23:19

There have been attempts (I think) in many places to create community, like group morning exercise in some part of Asia. I think what is somehow missing is that for me God is present in the quiet of prayer etc.

I am curious for those who do feel they would like to believe but do not, whether it is all the things done in the name of religion or a simple belief that there is no God, which makes them athiests?

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MrsHiddleston · 27/03/2013 23:23

I haven't taken offence in your questions, don't worry.

I was mainly being argumentative regarding the world being utopia without religion, in a.., well why couldn't it, why wouldn't it etc... Kind of way. Literally there has and there will always be religion because some people want to believe and have faith and that is a very strong thing. There will not and there probably could not have ever been a world without it, but I like to think that humans could have done marvellously without it. But humans are what they are and it's unlikely we wouldn't have found something else to fight over be it land, race, gender whatever.

I don't believe in a god because I don't, no more than I believe in the tooth fairy or Santa Claus. Would I like to believe in god, again no, no more than I'd like to believe in fairies. I cannot believe in these things because IMO they don't exist.

Don't confuse atheism. People do horrible things to each other in the name of religion of course but also nationality, race, gender, social standing etc... Atheism is a lack of belief in a god or gods. Communism has nothing to do with atheism. Mao may or may not have been an atheist, I have absolutely no idea, but he was a communist and he has left a communist legacy behind in his country. That has nothing to do with atheism.

Am I making any sense at all, I'm not sure, I'm tired. Smile

pianomama · 27/03/2013 23:28

Actually communism is another form of organised religion based on atheism.
In communist societies religion was banned and prosecuted.

MrsHiddleston · 27/03/2013 23:44

Well I never, I have just realised with the help of google that I have no idea what a communist is. So okay... I need to look into that. But!!!!

I am an atheist. I do not believe in a god or gods. I am not a communist. Atheists are not all communists, in the same vain that there will be communists who are theists.

And now I need to go to bed, tomorrow I will attempt to learn a bit more about communism. Wink

seeker · 27/03/2013 23:49

You can be an atheist and be practically anything else as well , you know. Except a theist, obviously........

Italiangreyhound · 27/03/2013 23:53

Just reading back to what people said earlier.

aliasjoey you said "I have thought what I need is a week-long course of religious taster sessions (you know like those trial packs of mini perfumes?)", how about an Alpha course, www.alpha.org/

Blu, AltogetherAndrews very interesting posts. Yes MsGee faith does come with it's own problems when dealing with the subject of pain.

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