The Book of Job

[Machadaynu]

I mentioned my thoughts on The Book of Job in the 'Back to Church' thread, and it was suggested that I start a new thread about it. So here it is.

The story of the book of Job is (to quote myself from the other thread):

God is chatting to Satan and mentions how Job is his best follower and would never lose faith. Satan essentially has a bet with God that Job would turn on God if his life wasn't so great. God, for some reason, accepts this deal with the proviso that Satan doesn't kill Job. It's not explained why God is chewing the fat with Satan rather than, say, destroying him completely, what with God being omnipotent and Satan being pure evil.

Anyway, Satan sends all sorts of illness to Job, kills all his animals, destroys his farm and kills his entire family. God, being omniscient, knew this would happen when he took on the bet - he knew Job would suffer, and he knew Job would remain true to him. Quite why he needed to prove this to Satan (pure evil, remember) is something of a mystery.

In the end God gives Job twice as many animals as before, and 10 new children, including 3 daughters that were prettier than the ones God allowed Satan to kill.

Christians see this as a story of how faith is rewarded (even if you're only suffering because God is trying to prove a point to Satan) I see it as a story of how God will use us as he sees fit, is insecure and vain and is apparently either unable, or unwilling, to resist being influenced by Satan.

I contrast God's treatment of Job, his wife and children - all "God's children" used as pawns in a game, and suffering terribly for it - and wonder what we'd make of a human father treating his children in such a way. I expect the MN opinion would be rather damning to say the least. Yet when God does it, it becomes an inspiring story, and God is love, apparently.

Christians, I am told, see the book as a lesson in why the righteous suffer. The answer, it seems, is that their all-loving, all-powerful, all-knowing, benevolent holy father is sometimes prone to abandoning people to the worst excesses of Satan to try and prove some kind of point to God knows who.

Seems odd to me. God does not show love in that story. God shows himself to be deeply unpleasant. Or not God.

What are your views on Job?

I agree with Holo. When it comes down to relationship, it's not possible to provide a completely logical, quantitative and consistent argument for or proof for something, because relationship is subjective to the person. But millions of people throughout history have experienced relationship in following a certain person, Jesus, and have testified to his life changing love.

It'd be far too easy if we could explain away nicely every difficult bit of the bible wouldn't it? Make these discussions redundant. What fun would there be in that?

Reading that passage (Mark 10:17 ff) I'm inclined to read the instruction as specifically to the 'rich young ruler' - to test his attachment to his wealth. It does go on to say that others who do leave everything to follow him will receive 100-fold back (along with persecution) in this life, and eternal life hereafter - its not exactly an instruction that everyone has to do it. (I'm not sure that many people who have given up everything for Christ actually have received back 100-fold in this life which may put some people off trying.)

It occurs to me that there are probably more examples of people giving up everything in followers of eastern religions - the holy man with the begging bowl - and a prime example would be the Buddha, who was a Rich Young Ruler who gave it all up just to go away and think and meditate to work out the problem of suffering - no promise of riches on earth or eternal life.

mad what about people who feel every bit as passionately about Allah as Christians do about Jesus/god? How can they feel as strongly about their god as you do about yours if it all comes down to this relationship you speak of?

My post of 13.51pm saying "Love" was in answer to Thistledew.

Snorbs 1) I havent read about Lots wife in a long while. I will have to go and read it.
2) There was a different thread running about this. I hink it has stopped now. I commented near the end of it. Not sure if it answers your question or not.
3) Matthew didnt lie. Vaguely remember that bit. Again will have to go and read. There are some parts in the bible that are only in certain places. Yes,some parts are said in different gospels for instance,but not all of them.
The gospel of Mark for instance is onl half the size of the others,and people are normally advised to read that one first,as it is short and easier to read than say the gosper of John.

million how does 'love' distinguish Christians from non Christians?

Yes - Mark is the oldest of the gospels, and some people think the least unreliable. Interestingly, in some versions it stops short of the resurrection. Make of that what you will.

My post of 13.51pm saying "Love" was in answer to Thistledew.
I liked reading it as an answer to HeadInHands!

1. If God wanted to do it,God wanted to do it. Never underestimate Gods power.

Agreed ,from what little there is in the bible it looks a bit harsh.
On the other hand,Lot was visited by angels. No idea whether Lots wife saw them,probably not. But he may well have told her about them. And told her what the angels were going to do.
If I had been in her position, I would like to think I would have done completely everything I was told.

3. Yes ,often wondered why this is hardly mentioned by anyone. It must have been pretty weird when that happened. As I have said before,there are some things that are in some places in the bible,and not elsewhere.

So if I turn up tomorrow million claiming I've seen angels who've told me to pass a message on, you would just believe me and that would be that?

When the townspeople turned up demanding to 'know' Lots guests, lot offered his virgin daughters to try and placate them. Could you actually imagine a situation where you would offer your daughters to be raped by an angry mob? Could you worship a god that asked you to do that, or was even pleased that you did that, and was happy for that to be recorded in his one time biography as something he had condoned?

Where is the 'love' that you speak of in that incident?

night you say that the selling of all ones worldly possessions is the 'higher law' but not practical and realistic in reality. Why would Jesus give precious 'air time' to a tenet he knew was unworkable for 99.999% of his followers.

Why waste any of his 15 minutes of fame espousing what he knew would be disregarded by almost all Christians? Why not give them practical advice like 'wash your hands after going to the toilet'? Such advanced attention to hand hygiene would have been of a great benefit to their culture. He could have briefly explained the existence of bacteria and so on, but no, he chose to rehash and repackage the common or garden philosophies that had already been around for donkeys years. What a waste!

headinhands, so many questions!
and you are a Christian.

You sound very angry with God.

People could answer all your questions for all the time you live,but you have a personal problem with God himself.
I dont know how to help you solve it,other than for Christians and hopefully you to pray that you find your way back to Him.

million you clearly do not know what I sound like when I'm angry. Ask my husband for starters.

I'm becoming increasingly concerned about your faith in Allah million. Did you have a bad experience?

If you are not angry with God, are you disappointed in Him,do you think God has let you down in some way,not said yes to some of your prayers,you have someone ill in your family.
Are you starting to worship someone else?

Have you had a bad experience in some way?

Amillion - why does questioning things equate to being "angry with god" if you believe are you not allowed to doubt anything or question it?

She is asking questions in a ,and I can only call it "angry" way.
Does she sound to you like she is happy with Him? I would put a big grin face at this point,or a sceptical one,but the sad one is much more applicable

No ones going to answer my question(s) then? Anyone?

How does consecration cleanse and perfect the soul?

So the bible is wrong night? Why hasn't god revealed the error to all his followers or better still stop it being misinterpreted to begin with?