The Book of Job

[Machadaynu]

I mentioned my thoughts on The Book of Job in the 'Back to Church' thread, and it was suggested that I start a new thread about it. So here it is.

The story of the book of Job is (to quote myself from the other thread):

God is chatting to Satan and mentions how Job is his best follower and would never lose faith. Satan essentially has a bet with God that Job would turn on God if his life wasn't so great. God, for some reason, accepts this deal with the proviso that Satan doesn't kill Job. It's not explained why God is chewing the fat with Satan rather than, say, destroying him completely, what with God being omnipotent and Satan being pure evil.

Anyway, Satan sends all sorts of illness to Job, kills all his animals, destroys his farm and kills his entire family. God, being omniscient, knew this would happen when he took on the bet - he knew Job would suffer, and he knew Job would remain true to him. Quite why he needed to prove this to Satan (pure evil, remember) is something of a mystery.

In the end God gives Job twice as many animals as before, and 10 new children, including 3 daughters that were prettier than the ones God allowed Satan to kill.

Christians see this as a story of how faith is rewarded (even if you're only suffering because God is trying to prove a point to Satan) I see it as a story of how God will use us as he sees fit, is insecure and vain and is apparently either unable, or unwilling, to resist being influenced by Satan.

I contrast God's treatment of Job, his wife and children - all "God's children" used as pawns in a game, and suffering terribly for it - and wonder what we'd make of a human father treating his children in such a way. I expect the MN opinion would be rather damning to say the least. Yet when God does it, it becomes an inspiring story, and God is love, apparently.

Christians, I am told, see the book as a lesson in why the righteous suffer. The answer, it seems, is that their all-loving, all-powerful, all-knowing, benevolent holy father is sometimes prone to abandoning people to the worst excesses of Satan to try and prove some kind of point to God knows who.

Seems odd to me. God does not show love in that story. God shows himself to be deeply unpleasant. Or not God.

What are your views on Job?

We have the bible

www.biblefood.com/biblepage3.html

The point is that the concepts of 'God', 'heaven' and 'hell' are defined by the Bible. If an alien landed from another planet, its understanding of 'God' is going to be non-existent. I defy you to explain what 'God' is without recourse to how he is explained in the bible. Every Christian will have different parts of or teachings of the Bible to explain what God is.

Holo, I do think some Christians are deliberately disingenuous. They use their faith as a means to justify their bigotries and prejudices. And it's not just Christians. Or even a weakness solely of the religious; in the 1800s there used to be a belief among some that science had proved black people to be inferior because they had smaller brains(!) But the difference is that science is based on evidence so when such claims are proved to be false they're falsified for good. Religion, based on belief and not proof, offers no such protection.

That being said I suspect that a lot Christians try not to think too much about the contradictions of the moral position they have placed themselves in. Their parents believed a particular version of Christianity, they went to a school that taught a similar version, and surprise surprise that's what they believe now even if they don't think too much about what it is they actually believe and why. Yes, I know that's not universal but the sheer proportion of Christians who happen to have Christian parents (and Muslims who have Muslim parents, Hindus who have Hindu parents etc) is unignorable. So their sense of what their religion is accretes from an early age, an age where they're simply too young to seriously question or rationalise what they're being taught.

And, of course, passages such as the clay-doesn't-question-the-potter bit can be used as a convenient escape-hatch from asking tricky questions.

But here's a question for you: If you came across someone who claimed to be a Bible literalist living life the way Jesus commanded but who hadn't (say) given away all their worldly goods, how would you view the apparent contradiction?

Thistledew, given that you can ask five Christians what Hell is and get six different answers, I suggest that they're not defined particularly well. After all I believe that this very thread has seen ideas of Hell that range from literal fires'n'brimstone to simple separation from God. Milton gave a lot more detail about Hell than the Bible ever did.

The classic view of Heaven being full of people with wings and harps isn't in the Bible either. Thinking about it, I'm not sure there's any consistent indication of what Heaven is like other than God being there.

Grimma,are you saying you were a Christian,and are no longer a Christian?
That you have thrown it all away?

I was a Christian; I eventually found I no longer believed in God. So there was nothing to 'throw away' - except delusion. The world made a lot more sense thereafter.

I'm getting there, too, Grimma.

I respectfully disagree on a few of these. Specifically, Islam and Mormonism. I am sure that there are Muslims and Mormons who pick and choose beliefs within their own religion, but these religions didn't come about on the premise of doctrinal difference or Biblical interpretation, they came about on the premise of divine guidance and revelation.

Fair enough, I was referring to the fact that they are both variations of Abrahamic faith. All pretty much based on the same thing, just named something different because they claim to know better, or be the true word of god. Obviously I look at this like this because I do not have Abrahamic faith.

We have the bible

What gives you the idea that anything written in the bible matters? Or that (beyond a few parts of the new testament which have some historical evidence) that it is the truth?

"Snorbs Tue 16-Oct-12 22:51:29
Thistledew, given that you can ask five Christians what Hell is and get six different answers"

I recall being told about hell being a load of bikes fitted with anal dildos... Not sure who said it but quite a disturbing idea of it methinks.

I love the book of Job as a bit of literature. It also intrigues me because of the way that Satan is presented, not as a devil but as a regular acquaintance of Jehovah. Satan and Jehovah are gambling buddies who between them decide to fuck up a human. What is interesting is that there is no implied pre knowledge by God about what the result will be.

Grimma,that is very sad indeed.
There is therefore nothing I can say to you about Christianity that will make any difference to you.
Other Christians may disagree with me,so they may answer your religious questions.

Its not sad at all. I'm happy to be living in the real world.

I'm saddened by a site which tells lies about science, which your earlier link does.

Snorbs,your question about giving away all your possessions.
Good question.
This is just 1 example of where Chrisitians are not perfect.
In an ideal world,Christians would do this.
This is all part of learning and trying to do the Christian faith. It is a Chrisitian journey, basically where we are taught and encouraged to do harder and harder things.
In my case,I am married. My DH would divorce me if I did this,and that is also against bible teaching. Separation is ok,not divorce.
My DH will probably die before me. I may well give away my possessions after he dies. He knows this,and is not happy about it,especially from the childrens pov.So basically,he says I can do it,but after the kids have got their share that is theirs.

OK, so you would give away all your possessions but you don't because, to you, the bit in the Bible about divorce being wrong is more important to you than the "give away everything you own" bit.

So you have picked which bits of the Bible you think are more important to follow, and have put others aside (possibly temporarily). Fair enough.

Out of interest, how did you decide which bits to follow and which bits to ignore?

I think the creed is what is consistently agreed upon as basic Christian doctrine. All of the rest is more open to interpretation, you could say, but the creeds central tenets are pretty strongly articulated and sum it up in a fairly comprehensive way.

I'd disagree about nearly all Christians being Christians of birth. I wasn't - my parents did become Christians when I was a child but previously dad was an atheist I'd say a good proportion of the Christians I know are from non Christian backgrounds of whatever sort. Including some people from Hindu and Muslim backgrounds, who beautifully embrace their culture and their Christian faith together.

I do know a few Christians who have sold all their possessions and live that life literally. They're amazing. Just read a book by this guy who has founded a community that does this and works tirelessly for social justice. Some close friends of ours did this also and somehow always had enough to live on, sometimes at the last minute, but it always came through :)

I havent ignored the possessions bit.
I wouldnt like to say which is more important to God,not getting divorced,or giving away possessions.

Ultimately we have to think what God wants,and what he expects of us.
He knows full well we are not perfect. He is trying to edge us towards perfection. And I would suggest that the Christians who give away all their possesions,on the whole,are probably nearer perfection than those that havent yet.

I realise I need to qualify the divorce bit
If a DH has an affair,you are allowed to divorce.
He has broken the marriage.

madhairday.
What is the book called, I would be interested in reading it?
There are some other books where Christians who live like this,the money often comes at the very last minute.
Books by Leonard Cheshire who founded the Cheshire Homes are a good read.And he built up the Cheshire Homes in this same manner.

Thanks for the answer.

So there was a choice of two courses of action; either follow the "give away your possessions" thing and risk breaking the "don't get divorced" thing, or don't give away your possessions (at least for now) and so avoid divorce.

As the Bible itself gives no clear guidance as to which of these is preferable, so God's own will on this score is unknowable.

Given those two choices, you picked the latter. Fair enough. I'd probably do the same if I were in your shoes. But you made the choice based on your interpretation of what God expects from you.

Can you see how some people might see such a decision and wonder if you're indulging in a bit of cherry-picking over which bits of the Bible to follow and which bits to ignore/put off based on convenience? After all, it's a lot easier to have money and a marriage than to be destitute and alone.

Gods own will is not exactly unknowable.
It can certainly not be clear sometimes.
We have to use wisdom,and can ask for more wisdom. Also praying,reading the bible,speaking to fellow Christians.

I had to ask God which he wanted.
In that instance,I think I did precisely what he wanted.

This is where the personal relationship with God comes in
He is personal to me.
He basically lets ma and Christians know if we have gone on the wrong path.

I could go on and on here.
Have other things to do.
Will post again later about this if you want me to.

Add to that snorbs the teachings of Jesus in Matthew 10 stating that he didn't come to bring peace but to divide families a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.]. From that reading one could easily assume Jesus isn't concerned about keeping your family together. But of course, it's all about context

Actually, before that,can I ask what is your personal situation with God.
Were you a Christian,and have thrown it away?

amillion you say He basically lets ma and Christians know if we have gone on the wrong path. but how come there are so many different opposing beliefs amongst Christians themselves i.e. homosexuality etc. Why do you suppose god is telling different Christians different things?