The Book of Job

[Machadaynu]

I mentioned my thoughts on The Book of Job in the 'Back to Church' thread, and it was suggested that I start a new thread about it. So here it is.

The story of the book of Job is (to quote myself from the other thread):

God is chatting to Satan and mentions how Job is his best follower and would never lose faith. Satan essentially has a bet with God that Job would turn on God if his life wasn't so great. God, for some reason, accepts this deal with the proviso that Satan doesn't kill Job. It's not explained why God is chewing the fat with Satan rather than, say, destroying him completely, what with God being omnipotent and Satan being pure evil.

Anyway, Satan sends all sorts of illness to Job, kills all his animals, destroys his farm and kills his entire family. God, being omniscient, knew this would happen when he took on the bet - he knew Job would suffer, and he knew Job would remain true to him. Quite why he needed to prove this to Satan (pure evil, remember) is something of a mystery.

In the end God gives Job twice as many animals as before, and 10 new children, including 3 daughters that were prettier than the ones God allowed Satan to kill.

Christians see this as a story of how faith is rewarded (even if you're only suffering because God is trying to prove a point to Satan) I see it as a story of how God will use us as he sees fit, is insecure and vain and is apparently either unable, or unwilling, to resist being influenced by Satan.

I contrast God's treatment of Job, his wife and children - all "God's children" used as pawns in a game, and suffering terribly for it - and wonder what we'd make of a human father treating his children in such a way. I expect the MN opinion would be rather damning to say the least. Yet when God does it, it becomes an inspiring story, and God is love, apparently.

Christians, I am told, see the book as a lesson in why the righteous suffer. The answer, it seems, is that their all-loving, all-powerful, all-knowing, benevolent holy father is sometimes prone to abandoning people to the worst excesses of Satan to try and prove some kind of point to God knows who.

Seems odd to me. God does not show love in that story. God shows himself to be deeply unpleasant. Or not God.

What are your views on Job?

Yes, they can do that - hence why it was discussed in James. I haven't studied theology but, from what I can gather, some christians at the time were flopping about thinking they could do just as they pleased because Jesus had paid the price, they were sorted with God, so everything was done and they didnt need to do anything. You can choose not to do the 'works' you start to feel impelled to do. it's up to you. Same, same - it will always be the same.

I am not 'without sin' but, when I stand before God, it is Jesus God sees, or Jesus' atoning sacrifice. I am very much 'with sin' and will be until the day I die; but I don't want to be - purely because I love God and want to please him iyswim (because he's so gorgeous!) and also want to be used by him to do what he wants done in the world. If I'm up some side alley with an engrossing 'sin' then I'm useless to him, which would be such a waste, all round. Imo God wants people to get out there and do something about the hideous injustices that go on; literally, be his hands and feet.

we had Muslims like that in Early Islam as well, Muslims who thought that they could do whatever as long as they believed in Allah etc, and on the oppossite side Muslims who believed that anyone who sinned was out of Islam.

WHy does God need people to be his hands and feet?

crescent, we do both ie we bow with our faces to the floor (though not ritually), we also remonstrate. I bow because I give my entire being in reverence to him - he is so great. I don't fear him as in tremble with self-disgust (iyswim - not saying muslims do) but I do fear his awesome might and power. I'd be an idiot not to fear that. But I am assured that, when it comes down to it, he uses his unspeakable might and power to crouch down to a ridiculously lowly height, get himself born into the world, then die for thankless humanity so we can have a relationship. He did it because we wouldn't. I don't think he has done it entirely to chew the cud with us relationally iyswim - there's more to it than that.

crescent, re: i have already been forgiven and i am going to be with God no matter what

the christian gospel isn't selfish ie yes, we want to get ourselves sorted with God and it is an exclusive dynamic between the individual and God; but the impulse isn't soley that we are ok. As God is a relational God, he wants relationships with all his kids. Not just to chew the cud, as I said, but also to be led and ignited by his spirit to go into the world and do what he wants done in it. hence his 'hands and feet'. He is very probably gagging for his own to get out into the world and start addressing the terrible things that happen. I don't just mean hideous 3rd world stuff - that too, of course - but all the injustices that go on all around, all the lives that are blighted by any number of things. People say God doesn't care, but he so does, and his vehicle to address suffering is through people (imo). though I accept that appears a tad simplistic. (imo he will also use anybody anywhere who is willing to address the suffering in the world - as would you if your kid was suffering.)

(don't mean to offend anyone with the 'he is probably gagging' statement. He's not my pal in my back pocket and I don't mean to imply he is doddery and kind of desperate and flailing)

the thought of hell doesn't keep me on my toes, million. Though, actually, the thought of the hell on earth that a lot of people around me in the world experience - yes, that keeps me on my toes.

I assume you're all quiet because you've gone to pick up your kids..

Does Mormonism have another book then? So does it have another Prophet?

And of course, whether scriptures are errant or not, they are subject to human interpretation - Islam may claim perfect scriptures but its pretty obvious human interpretations are falliable.

(Of course, I don't believe in any of them...makes life a lot easier. Doesn't let me off the hook of living ethically of course ...there isn't anarchy without god because most people aren't actually built that way)

The thought of hell does help to keep me on the straight and narrow.

Along with wanting to do right.
I think I have really wanted to do right most of my life.
I used to see what happened to anybody who did wrong,and couldnt see the point of it. What did anyone gain when they were younger except tellings off,punishments etc.Decided that wasnt for me at an early age of 10.

If you are a non Christian you have got until the moment you die,to say sorry for your sins and believe that Jesus was raised from the dead. Then you can go to Heaven.

If you are a Christian,you have got until you die to try and remain a Christian,in order to go to Heaven.
If and when Chrisitians sin,they need to repent.So long as they remain believing that Jesus was raised form the dead,and stay being sorry for any sins they do,they will go to Heaven.

That may be the spin Paul put on it; the gospels report Jesus as saying this, which strongly implies that you should have actively done good in your life whether you were knowingly doing it 'for jesus' or not (Matthew 25:31-46 ):

31 ?When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 ?Then the King will say to those on his right, ?Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.?

37 ?Then the righteous will answer him, ?Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you??

40 ?The King will reply, ?Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.?

41 ?Then he will say to those on his left, ?Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.?

44 ?They also will answer, ?Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you??

45 ?He will reply, ?Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.?

46 ?Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.?

what, has nobody come back on this?

Had to take off from this thread because I was brought up by a mother who had an absolute terror of hell, which overshadowed all our (siblings) lives. It was a mammoth disorder - still is, actually. Not surprising when you read that, from the Man himself.

I don't know what to make of it tbh and was hoping that the likes of HEmummy would come along and shed some light. It seems unequivocal, seems to feed into the premise of the thread (or OP's original q) but I can't accept it's that cut and dried.

Call me a pick and chooser if you like, this does my head in.

springyhope,there is another thread going in this same board about why Jesus had to die.
I found that I was commenting on both,and after a while didnt notice that all my posts were on the other one.
The op from this one seems to have long gone.

If the subject matter on here was triggering you,I think you were wise to leave it.

springy, great posts :)

crescentmoon, you say 'many christians do not believe in hell, and even then proclaim that believing in Jesus Christ as saviour will save one from hell. and i like the sound of it but i want to know what checks and balances are there against bad or evil conduct?otherwise it seems to give the wicked and bad hearted a blank cheque to behave the way they like without being accounted. '.

I think there is a danger in talking about christianity to make it sound like everyone is forgiven, it's ok, don't worry about your sin. When actually, we need to remember God is a holy and righteous God, and sin is serious. Yes, we believe Jesus died on the cross and redeemed us, made it possible for us to become right with God, as our sin separated us from God. But that in no way means we are free to merrily sin away thinking that it's fine, we're forgiven. Actually, I think it gives us less excuse to do so - knowing Jesus paid this price, if we carry on in such ways, it would be like hurting him over and over. We need to remember the severity of it all.

So I'd say that there was this once for all sacrifice, but we have responsibility to live in the light of that, to live as God expects, to make every effort to become like Jesus, ie to love God and others. If we get lazy about that then there will be consequences. One of the things I love about my faith is that I believe God is a God of justice, and that there will be a reckoning, all the evil in the world will not go unpunished, not go unforgotten. I don't know what hell is, I don't feel there is enough information, but do know God is just.

Hope this answers your question a little :)

As for the OP, and the book of Job...Job reminds me of two things: 1) that bad stuff happens to anyone, not just bad people, and that people saying that you must have sinned to get such a punishment are basically talking bollocks, and 2) that we cannot know the mind of God, and that God is bigger and wilder and more amazing and mysterious than we can begin to imagine or grapple with. But that God is, ultimately, good.

Classic scenario but imagine a serial rapist rapes and murders an atheist woman. She goes to hell as she has rejected salvation. The man goes to prison and finds god after a life of serious crime, he goes to heaven. Some believers will use the 'god will judge the heart' in which case why did we need Jesus if there is a back door. And what about the fact that the serial rapist had a horribly abusive childhood and his 'heart' is beyond repair.

Is that actually a fair scenario? Would that be just, that a good person who found it impossible to believe in an invisible god was tortured for eternity because her brain couldn't accept it? Or maybe she was born into a different religion? And all the while her murderer is in heaven? I would like someone to explain how that would be fair.

No, that wouldn't be fair, headinhands. But I believe God is just, and therefore his justice encompasses all these situations, all these people, that he knows intimately by name. God does not want anyone to be away from him or 'in hell', here or in eternity. I fully believe heaven will surprise many people in who is and who is not there. Yes, God looks at the heart, and looks at the situation, and is just and fair. There will be justice for such a woman, but there is also grace for such a man, should he choose to accept it and change. It is difficult to make any assumptions about what will happen to whom. I prefer to concentrate on making this life better for as many as possible, and let God sort out eternal consequences