Anyone want to chat about morality without God?

[MMMarmite]

Where do you think morality comes from? Are there right actions and wrong actions, or are we all just doing what makes us feel good in the end? Can there be an absolute morality, or can something be right to some people and wrong to others?

I've been an agnostic for years, and am unconvinced by the claims of religions. But it bothers me that although I have quite strong views on many moral issues, eg. I support gay rights, am against most wars, I don't really understand the basis for morality underneath it all.

There is a lot to be said for a culture of generous hospitality though isn't there, crescent moon ? I think many of us could learn a lot on that front from other times and cultures. It must be lovely to live in a society where you know if you drop in on a friend you will be welcomed and given a cuppa and a bit of time with them for a chat. The ideas of assertiveness are very interesting, and often helpful, but then again I feel they just represent one possible approach to a situation.

Well.

I was going to post something along the lines of "My morality is guided by the priniciple of 'do upon others...", but having read garlic's posts, I am just blown away! V v interesting.

I also think that I was raised in an 'Ask' family, whereas DH clearly favours the 'Guess' approach...

Clearly, there are religious people who are not very moral, and very 'good' people who are not at all religious. Religions are a social construct that give us a framework in which to base our actions, but they are man-made and therefore undergo cultural changes over time.

If we could all just be nice to each other, the world would be a better place

Enjoyed reading this ladies. Interesting thread.

I am definitely going to try and read that book garlic talked about. I have read quite a bit about related topics - brain development in children, empathy, attachments etc. I am already convinced that the emotions (especially fear) experienced by a baby can stunt brain development, and I have seen firsthand how fear and shame based behaviours then get ingrained and lead to a pretty unhappy childhood. I believe that we have evolved to have compassion and empathy, and that empathy is key to our moralality (certainly key to my own sense of morality, i weigh most things up by thinking about harm), but I also think empathy has to be learnt, and the ability to feel empathy can be taken away from a child if their brain development is stunted/changed enough, and it can be very hard or impossible to teach it later in life. i think fear must be one of our most primary emotions - surely it must have evolved before most other emotions? Otherwise people wouldn't have the survival instinct we have, because we fear harm and death. The survival instinct pretty much all animals feel, from fish to rabbits etc. And many negative emotions have fear at their root...many times when i feel angry, I also feel fear, and if I was less scared, i would be less angry

This is all my own confused brains ramblings, but I see different kinds of shame. There's the remorseful kind of shame if you hurt somebody - and you won't feel that shame if you don't have the ability to empathise. Then there's a more personal shame - self loathing, which feeds into depression. Like if you have a problem with eating disorder, and you try to eat as little as possible, then one day you eat more than usual - people often then feel major shame and self loathing. That's based on my children - my middle child especially has problem with feeling empathy, remorse and a few years ago would not feel shame at hurting someone - but would feel personal shame/self loathing very very easily

crescent the stuff about honour is interesting, thank you

People who smuggled Jews out of Nazi Germany were committing a capital offence against the laws of their country.

The holocaust brings lots of interesting moral issues up (as well as terrible suffering).

I was listening to a very interesting radio programme a week or two ago about a priest in France. He would baptise Jews as Christians and provide the paperwork to prove they were not Jewish.

In France he is treated as a hero, but not in Isreal. They spoke with a Rabbi who said he should not have baptised a single Jew, that he should have helped in other ways but that this was morally wrong.

He was acting within the law, as it was at the time, and saved many lives. Because he acted within the law he was able to continue to 'help'.

I'm off for a quick google to see if I can find more info.

People are generally moral full stop. It is religion that is immoral with it's made up concepts such as just war, and it's bigotry and hate, justification of rape all served up as love divine from a great sky fairy.

Very young children have to be taught socially acceptable behaviour as rules, because they do not have theory of mind. It only starts developing at around 4yo and doesn't complete until the 20s: that is, the capacity is fully developed by 25; we can continue to grow in understanding & empathy throughout life, if we stay healthy.

I'm pretty sure theory of mind can lead humans to throw out learned 'rules'. One example could be mumsnet benefit-bashers, who may not have given much thought to the hardships endured by others until having contact with their realities. Some develop a more charitable attitude as a result. This happens without the influence of religion or any other moral ruleset.

I'm not suggesting we'd have successful societies without any rules or laws at all - I don't even think such a thing is possible, as we're instinctively driven to form groups. But, once we reach adulthood, we don't need detailed instructions on how to act. We have the capacity to work out what's best for all concerned; more than rules, we need information! There are some stories, for example, about burglars having given up the trade after hearing victim statements or when a relative was burgled.

Thanks for your posts about hawala, crescent. It's interesting from a number of aspects, one of them being the devastating repercussions of 'western' banks having been freed of their obligation to keep the promises written on banknotes. You're right, community banks and friendly societies are like this (with more paperwork). Building societies were, too, before they became banks around 30 years ago.

crescentmoon your posts about the islamic money transfer system are fascinating :)

Yes, children are born egotistical. We're not fully developed when born - clinicians refer to the 'missing trimester' - and a newborn has no sense of itself as separate from its carers. The sense of individuality develops over the next few years, peaking in the Tantrum Twos () when children finally get that the world is not 'them' and have a go at seeing how much influence they have over it! Recognition of other people as fellow individuals who, like themselves, have their own thoughts & feelings, begins to develop around 3 or 4.

These are genetic developments, crescent, independent of tuition. We are, however, programmed to learn, especially in childhood. When there is no input - as with those poor Romanian orphans - the neurological development continues but, lacking knowledge, simply sits there awaiting tuition :( The young Romanians resumed learning as soon as opportunities arose.

Moral guidance for children is selective input, intended to help their theory of mind develop in ways that will help them live constructively within their society. It will, though, develop of its own accord, using whatever input is available.

Have I said human beings are moral without any input? I said theory of mind develops of its own accord, using whatever input is available.

Like other 'pack' animals, we are driven to form groups. Groups have moralities; structure, loyalty and teamwork are necessary to the group's success. It's unclear whether species other than apes have theory of mind, but there's mounting evidence that they at least have something like it.

Your queue example is simply an effect of learning the mores of a particular group - in this case, British shoppers. Since humans are adaptable, we learn pdq that the British observe a first-come-first-served rule, even if it doesn't apply in our home country, and we play along. We don't need to be formally taught. If we don't conform, others will let us know we're wrong (according to the group's rules) and, if we still won't play, attempt to punish us. This is how the thousands of tiny rules you mentioned are effected. It is not essentially different from the behaviours of chimps, wolves, birds or any other creature. We all have social rules - those of humans are more complex because our societies are.

Thank you :)

Haven't read everything here, but a quick thought, having worked with young children for many years ... that it would be a far from natural situation for a child to grow up with little or no input from human adults teaching some moral guidelines amongst other things. I guess there have been rare cases of a child brought up by a wolf pack or similar ?

But I guess a natural part of our development is our training, as young children especially, by the adults around us that love and care for us. And we have a long childhood with elements of training continuing well into the teenage years and young adulthood.

I agree with Jugglings, as behaviour to others is a matter of having empathy, and some people do not seem to have it genetically. I do not believe in a god, but do agree with the Ten Commandments. To treat people as you would like to be treated is common sense, but selfishness still prevails, unfortunately. Altruistic - putting others before yourself- is how my DH and I am, but can be taken as a weakness by manipularors. I am unusual, in that I cannot tell a lie, but my parents were the same, but not my 2 siblings. I also think wars are the biggest evil in the world.

My parents 3 children were genetically totally different. My brother, 1st born, was born contrary and at 71 still is. My younger sister was born willful and determined to get her own way at all costs, this was achieved with terror tantrums and tyranny right into her 20s. I, in the middle was born very timid and very shy, with no confidence. My sister still gets her own way, but by clever manipulation. I have grown in confidence and am no longer shy, but no wiles or manipulatory skills. It depends on the genetic make-up how children will react to parenting skills.

I can't see how we can hold up the 10 commandments as any sort of definitive list for morality. The first 4 alone are to do Yahweh's ego. Other contemporary religions had much better rules for want of a better word.