I've completely forgotten why God doesn't intervene

[Alameda]

or isn't there a reason?

"And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything in My name, I will do it." (John 14:13-14)
"If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you" (John 15:7).
"For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you." (Matthew 17:20)

It's the moving mountains one that's in my head all the time when I think about this.

But, the people who wrote that could not possibly have believed that it would work in a literal way - mountains didn't move then any more than they do now. Jesus didn't physically move mountains, nor did the apostles. So, when that verse was written, they could not have meant "All you have to do is pray and you will get exactly what you asked for, no matter how impractical". So, they must have meant something else by it, something more like "You'll be able to achieve things you would have thought far beyond you".

[quote]his belief was that God only deals with souls, not bodies, not physical stuff.[/quote]

Sorry, but there is only the physical as things made of nothing don't exist. Nothing can't be a person, place, or thing.. If nothing existed, even itself wouldn't exist by definition.. Hence, it's a self-refutation that invalidates itself by consequence of it's meaning.

[quote]
It was questioned by the angel that we know as Satan when he tempted Adam and eve.[/quote]

There is no entity named Satan either.. And no being named "Satan" tempted Adam or Eve in the bible. Please read the bible before commenting on it, and do read this nice little article on the subject of Satan so you can get a good education of where that actually means and comes from:

matt-mattjwest.newsvine.com/_news/2012/03/26/10863825-satan-the-devil-in-the-details

You might even learn where "Devil" comes from and what that actually means as well. And did you seriously have to spam post that 3 times HerRoyalNotness ?

[quote] One of my loveliest friends is suffering with cancer that seems to be defying treatment. She has faith, she is good and kind.
I don't understand how this is ok? I have prayed for her so many times as must so many others. Can God hear me?[/quote]

No, sorry GOD doesn't hear you.. In fact, you are playing the common GOD of ODDS game to which you can just as easily play flipping a coin and make the same argument regarding well wishing, or just simply heads or tails since the odds are 50/50 of getting it right. Yep, she either heals or doesn't.. But shh, don't tell everyone else the little Charlatan tricks religious people love to use for false credibility arguments.. Hence let us know when praying ever magically makes a sandwich and puts it in a starving child's mouth, or has an amputee grow their limbs back.. Yep, that's not going to happen.

[quote]The problem with telling ourselves that god doesn't intervene because of free will, fallen earth and so on is that it doesn't square with the bible and the teachings of Jesus about prayer and gods providence while on earth. And then some will say its been interpreted wrong and then debate becomes impossible because there are no goal posts.[/quote]

No it just that they love to move the goal posts.. When you see that, it's a clear indication that they know they are full of crap and just making up as they go to rationalize the obvious elephant in the room. The elephant being the supposed GOD.

[quote]
Would you really want to live in a world where cause & effect didn't work though? Where you could drive drunk, knowing that God would pull any innocent children out of your path? Where if you were ill and didn't get better, you knew it was because you were a bad person and deserved it?[/quote]

Circular reasoning... Btw cause and effect is self-governing for better or worse. It's a positive negative relationship to which includes relativity of that. In fact, positive, negative, and neutral are basically the 3 governing rules to literally everything. It's a fundamental part of reality itself..

[quote]If we have any free will at all, then our actions have to have consequences, and those consequences won't just affect us as individuals, [/quote]

Faulty logic considering you have not taking the time to really contemplate what "free will" would actually mean.. Hence, it would mean you would be free of any consequences, restrictions, or limits at will.. Would you be willing to be subject to such? See the problem is that free will is a logical fallacy and you are only able to do or be subject to what is actually possible regardless if bad, good, neutral, or some mix there of. And you don't have the free will to be GOD do you? So lets tone down on the fallacy of "free will" here.

[quote]
Given omnipotence it would be perfectly possible to create a universe in which there is cause and effect[/quote]

Omnipotence is another logical fallacy easily disproved.. Hence, you can not, for example, create that which yourself requires to exist, or function. So can this supposed GOD create existence itself? Nope!.. And this leads us to what actually governs what is and isn't possible. It leads us to what actually is causality and every force to cause. And that is existence itself.. Existence it the totality of everything. That is everything that exists, could exist, or ever will exist. And that which does exist would be bound to require existence and it's rules to exist or function at all. It's pretty hard to do anything without existence.. So I can sit here and point to the Pantheist GOD, and the Christians aren't going to like this, to which is existence itself.. And I can ask a very simple question to prove the point:

What is GOD without existence?

Yep, so much for monotheism right? And existence itself makes the concept of GOD moot because that would make us all GOD, and everything else of GOD.. Once you go to the top of the totem pole, it becomes moot. Thus no conscious entity can have power without that which gives it power in the first place. And regardless if we ourselves were born from conscious processes, unconscious processes, or both..., we would all still be emergent properties of existence itself..

And here is the Jaw dropper.. Me and any of you, are literally existence discussing this issue with itself. Yes, I am in and of existence, and so are you. Like two unique glasses made from the same pile of sand. So there is no GOD of existence, or to existence but existence itself. So I would love to see a Christian answer that very question... ;) They will find it to be the hardest question they could ever sit down and try to honestly answer.

[quote]
evidence to the contrary god really is good and hates to see us suffer.[/quote]

Self refuting argument in an attempt to rationalize supposed GOD doing nothing about suffering.. For example, why create life that must murder itself in order to reproduce and survive? I'm sure baby seals love being ripped apart by a starving killer whale while momma seal watches helplessly. It amazes me to see people make such arguments while blood is in the water, and screams of help echo unheard in gargles.. Just to put a little perspective on that issue.. But hey, "God hates to see us suffer"...Shh, ignore the starving children in Sudan! That magic manna mosses got is too good for starving children!

[quote]
But I don't think it likely that they thought God would give them everything they asked for, just for the asking. [/quote]

This idea only came into play after Jesus was introduced to the religious cult that then became "Christianity".. Hence, this comes from Jesus himself stating that praying in his name it would be done.. It only takes one to actually read the bible, this to which I don't think most Christians have done.

I see my testing of a quote system has shown this site to have no means to quoting someone without hand writing it :/... That's got to make some of these discussions rather messy :/

AMuminScotland- o you believe that Jesus performed miracles?

seeker - Yes, because I believe that Jesus was God incarnate and therefore capable of such things

OK. So why only then and never again?

I think God does sometimes intervene, now as well as then, but that it's risky both in terms of having knock-on effects and in terms of allowing cause and effect to work properly.

But I think that Jesus being incarnate was a total "game-changer" and that to make people rethink their whole religion they had to be shaken up and given a level or proof of who Jesus was and what was possible, which was more than just preaching or taking personal/political action.

So, for a limited time, while Jesus was incarnate, he did a lot more direct intervention than before or since. The cost/benefit analysis would make it reasonable to risk taking more direct action, in order to achieve the important result of convincing people that Jesus was something a lot more than just another prophet.

[quote]I think God does sometimes intervene, now as well as then, but that it's risky both in terms of having knock-on effects and in terms of allowing cause and effect to work properly.[/quote]

Ok prove it.. Maybe you can discuss cognitive systems in dealing with information science and theory regarding cause and effect and why a conscious state can't exist without cause. If you like, I can outline that for you to..But some how I think you will resort to the argument of it being too complicated to comprehend giving your track record.

[quote]
But I think that Jesus being incarnate was a total "game-changer"[/quote]

Hardly a game changer. The concept one's GOD manifesting in the flesh predates the story of Jesus. In fact that concept also came from the Egyptians as they believed their Pharaohs were their GOD's manifested in the flesh as kings to guide them. Most often in regards to Horus as a guiding light.. And there is really nothing original about the story of Jesus as pretty much every facet of it derives from already preexisting beliefs that largely come from their polytheistic roots. That even includes that little cross, and that thorn olive branch crown your Jesus's head.

[quote]
So, for a limited time, while Jesus was incarnate,[/quote]

You're making assertions you can't prove. But hey, try and find me a contemporary record of his existence, or literature written and dated by himself. It's kind of odd that a so called important GOD figure can't seem to write down is own philosophies. Many of which also predated him btw..

But, amuminscotland- that's not what it says in the bible.

And could you give me some examples of when God has intervened?

seeker my view is that the Bible contains an account of what the people who were writing it thought and believed, but that they were not infallible, and their understanding was not any better than ours is. So the fact that it says something in the Bible doesn't mean I have to take it literally. Sorry if that sounds ieka a cop-out but I don't know how anyone can take everything in the Bible completely literally as bits of it contradict other bits.

As to when god has intervened - I don't know. I've prayed for things and they have happened, but I have no idea if they would have happened anyway. Nothing that has ever happened to me has been so far-fetched as to make me convinced that my prayer was absolutely definitely the reason why it happened.

Seeker, I do wish that if you are going to keep on repeating 'that is not what it says in the Bible' you would give some evidence a)that you actually know what is in the Bible and b)that you are prepared to engage in informed discussion of it.

My experience is that it is combative and often badly-informed atheists who are more likely to proffer single verses taken out of context as evidence for their assertions.

We need to remember in this discussion that much, perhaps most, intercessory prayer is not asking for miraculous healing. For instance, I prayed this morning that someone I know who is going through a hard time would know that he is surrounded by God's love, and that he would find the strength to get through this time, and that his family, friends and colleagues would help and support him in any way they can, and that the people who are making life hard for him will learn wisdom. I won't know whether God has intervened -- or rather, I won't know all of the ways God might have intervened in this situation. How could I?

Much of what God does is not known to us, and is not knowable. But I have enough experience of God's involvement in my own life and that of people I know to say that I think he intervenes sometimes. We also need to remember that, as I said upthread, God may answer prayer by saying 'no', or by doing something else from the thing we have asked him to do. His purposes are greater than ours, and he has the big picture we don't.

And AMumInScotland is quite right about Jesus's miracles. We need to remember they are signs that he is the Messiah. He wasn't a doctor, healing wasn't the main thing he was here for -- that was speaking the good news of God's kingdom. The miraculous healings were signs that he was speaking with divine authority. It is not that such things could never happen ever again, but they needed to happen then in order to show people who Jesus was.

Why do you feel the need to be rude to me?

I have several times quoted the biblical texts that cause me particular concern. The only response seems to have been "oh, that wasn't meant literally". People talk about God intervening- but never seem to be able to give examples of times when he has. People talk about God's plan being too complicated to understand- but don't seem to be able to explain why they continue to keep their faith in the face of all awful things that seem to be part of the plan. People talk about god loving and knowing every single person ,"Not a sparrow falls....." but don"t seem to have an issue with him letting millions of "sparrows" suffering indescribably. Oh, and if this was going to be your next point, I'm not Christian- bashing. I'm Christian- questioning. I think any Christian who comes on this thread would be up for that, no?

[quote]My experience is that it is combative and often badly-informed atheists who are more likely to proffer single verses taken out of context as evidence for their assertions. [quote]

There isn't 30 thousand sects because all the Christians understand their bibles. Most interpret it how they want, or as in what they want to believe. And on many occasions it's a goal post moving game in discussions because they self-invent what ever interpretation they want to which often means adding words that aren't there or playing semantics to change the context. And you would be surprised at how many Christians quote mine their own bibles out of context. That argument you made is essentially moot and worthless.

And it's the classic game of "Hey, umm,. you find it" vs actually posting the scripture and it's context as a direct reference..

seeker I'm happy to try to explain my own point of view, but sometimes I feel it's tricky as I certainly wouldn't claim to be speaking for Christians in general, so all I can end up saying is "Well, I think this..." but it will contradict what other people equally confidently believe, so it's hard.

It's true that there are clear statements in the NT which say that prayers will be answered. But I find it impossible to believe that the people who wrote them meant them completely literally, because they must have known the same things that we do now - you can ask till you're blue in the face but that doesn't mean God will automatically do what you've asked for. But they wrote that stuff anyway. So they must have meant something a lot more subtle than what the words say. I don't know why they put things the way they did, or what they really believed about the effectiveness of prayers.

As to intervention - if I tell you I prayed for someone to get better from an illness, or for something to happen, and it did happen, then there's nothing about that which says "Oh it must have been God", because those things might well have happened anyway. I can say that I've prayed for patience, or the strength to face a difficult situation, and those are even less provable. If someone tells me they prayed for someone with a terminal illness to survive, and they did, then I'll probably say "well, these things happen", because they do. I don't think I've ever heard a story of prayer doing something which was totally impossible, because I don't think many things are totally impossible in the first place, just very unlikely.

As to "God's plan", I don't think there is a detailed one - I don't reckon a God with a detailed plan would work by evolution and freewill, its just not that predictable. So the4 fall of lots of sparrows, and people, isn't happening because God plans it, I think that's just a sop to make people feel better. But I think there is some overall aim of us being here, just not down to the detail. Most of the detail is random crap.

Jesus didn't physically move mountains, nor did the apostles. So, when that verse was written, they could not have meant "All you have to do is pray and you will get exactly what you asked for, no matter how impractical".

BTW, Jesus only said it would be done if you believe.. So yeah, it doesn't say what you proclaim it to say.. So let's actually quote it:

(Matthew 21:21-22 NAS) And Jesus answered and said to them, "Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, `Be taken up and cast into the sea,' it will happen. "And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive."

The basic message, if ignoring the mountain, is saying anything you pray for and believe, it will magically just happen. And that includes tossing mountains in the sea. And I can't imagine how much of an epic fail that is in regards to reality..

Oh but it doesn't stop there.

(John 14:13-14 NAB) And whatever you ask in my name, I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything of me in my name, I will do it.

Soooooo, anyone want to stop world starvation today.. Just pray to Jesus and it will be done!.. Funny under a section of the bible where Jesus tries to comfort his disciples.. But hey, there is rules to being his disciple too.. Such as:

• Matthew 10:35-37 35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. 37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

• Luke 14:26 26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Are we having fun yet?

Is the passage you are referring to this one?

Matthew 10:30-31 : Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground unperceived by your Father. And even the hairs of your head are all counted. So do not be afraid; you are of more value than many sparrows.

This passage is not about God not letting the sparrows suffer, but about the way God knows us intimately and individually. 'Do not be afraid' here refers to an earlier verse 'Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.'; and the last clause refers to the powers of darkness/Beelzebub (mentioned a verse or two earlier); and 'hell' translates the Greek 'gehenna' which in turns translates the Hebrew 'sheol' which was the rubbish pit outside Jerusalem. So the passage is part of a discussion about God's promise of eternal life, and his promise to redeeem us from the powers of evil and about his all-knowing and all-loving care for us. It doesn't have anything to say about whether he will intervene in world, or whether he will stop suffering.

The suffering I think you are talking about is that kind of suffering that is seemingly random and causeless such as, say, cancer. We can't see where God's agency is because we don't have that kind of vision that is able to count the hairs on everyone's head. We don't know how God intervenes -- it might be to sustain the medical staff in their care; it might be to give the person hope or release from pain; it might be to comfort people around them. All sorts of things are in play, and God is one of them. Extraordinary reverses in disease do happen, and who is to say that these were not the answer to somebody's prayer somewhere?

Meanwhile we need to remember that most human suffering on this earth is caused by other human beings. In that case we come right back to the problem of free will. It's not that nothing can be done to stop that suffering: but in most cases what God will do is to help us have the heart to go out and work for the changes we are praying for.

[quote]As to "God's plan", I don't think there is a detailed one -[quote]

Isn't it GOD's plan to prosper you? Funny how ignorant that is when considering the reality of places like Sudan ect.. People suffer and some how that is prospering.. Nothing like starving to death, it's a prospering experience and you should have fun:

Jeremiah 29:11

New International Version (NIV)

11 For I know the plans I have for you,? declares the Lord, ?plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.

So how much detail do you need sir?

[quote]'Do not be afraid' here refers to an earlier verse 'Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.';[quote]

Here is some fun!

"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:" -2nd Thessalonians 1:8

• Thessalonians 1:7-9 The Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power

TheJackal didn't I already say that I think the people who wrote the books of the Bible were writing from their own partial view of the world, writing what they believed in? The fact that they thought God had a detailed plan doesn't mean I have to think that too.

Jackel, what's the point you are making with these verses? They don't answer to my discussion of Matthew 10: 30-31. We can all use Bible search engines! H

You have exactly exemplified my point about atheists taking Bible verses out of context and flourishing them as if they were some kind of grand 'yah boo sucks'.

[quote]Jackel, what's the point you are making with these verses? They don't answer to my discussion of Matthew 10: 30-31. We can all use Bible search engines![quote]

If you notice, I was quoting peoples arguments and and responding to them. And there is nothing wrong with looking up verses for a quick paste for reference.. A lot more efficient than writing them out, especially if you have dyslexia like me. So yes, I will use shortcuts when I can.

If you want to know how this deals with a GOD that doesn't get involved, just reading the bible will tell you how contradictory that is.. Sorry, Christians can't have their cake and eat it to.

[quote]You have exactly exemplified my point about atheists taking Bible verses out of context and flourishing them as if they were some kind of grand 'yah boo sucks'.[quote]

Incorrect. But nice try though..

[quote]TheJackal didn't I already say that I think the people who wrote the books of the Bible were writing from their own partial view of the world, writing what they believed in? The fact that they thought God had a detailed plan doesn't mean I have to think that too.[/quote]

So basically your just making it up as you go just as they did.. Basically a Carl Sagan dragon and absolute negative approach. So basically you're just arguing what you want to believe. So now this GOD is invisible, can't be heard, and now doesn't have a detailed plan.. It's like basically admitting to chaos theory regarding cause and effect, and that you are pretty much just making stuff up.. Ok... so what parts of this bible and the history of Christianity do you actually take seriously if you think it's just people writing what they believed in..?

Jackel, do you know anything about these verses? Not meaning to be rude there, but this is a genuine question - do you know when they were written, by whom, to whom, and why, and so on? For me, learning more about the world of early Christianity has been massively helpful in trying to make sense of the Bible. For example, and I know this is pre-Christian, but the verse you quoted from Jeremiah is one of the clasic expressions of hope to people in the Babylonian exile, to people whose basis for believing in God seemed to have utterly vanished, all that God had promised seemed to have failed...and yet the words 'I know the plan I have for you' suggests that ultimately, this exile won't last forever. Yes, we can think about them in terms of our own lives, of the times that we feel like 'exiles' of one sort or other - but for me, I don't think it's very meaningful to cite verses without having any historical perspective on them. That way lies huge distortion...