Today's news about same-sex marriages

[MissM]

I am not a Christian, or religious in any way. Culturally I am Jewish, but would describe myself as an atheist.

However, I am very interested in religious and spiritual issues, and in other people's perspectives on them. So in that light, could I ask Christians on this thread to give me their feelings about the C of E's announcement today that it feels that the church is threatened by same sex marriages (link?

Does this announcement by 'the church' represent what you also think? I personally feel quite astounded at their arrogance, and at their implied dismissal of gay and lesbian people who are also church-goers.

I think they should be forced to perform gay marriages, or not perform marriages. If you want to do a service for people then you should not be legally allowed to discriminate, there is no excuse for it. They take money for the service they provide like any other business and other businesses cannot be prejudice.

Krumbum, I'm with you. When gay marriage is finally legalised then if the CofE wants to retain the privilege of being allowed to perform legal marriages it can damn well follow the law and perform legal marriages for gay people too.

If it really can't bring itself to do that then it is entirely free to give up its privileges by disestablishing itself. It will then be treated like all the other faith organisations in this country.

Disestablishing the Cof E is a massive task, it is not just signing a bit of paper, it would take decades!

How I would love to be able to take a wedding without charging, but somehow the CofE has to pay its clergy etc. A wedding, from the time we first see a couple to the moment we hand over the certificates after the service is in the region of 20 -40 hours work time, not that we keep a tab. The cost includes the upkeep of the building

The CoE doesn't get to perform legal marriages because it's established though. It's just because it's Christian.

The Catholic Church, Baptists, Presbyterians, Methodists, etc etc etc can all perform legal marriage ceremonies and they're not the Established Church.

I'm all for disestablishmentarianism (being Scottish, so bishops sitting in the House of Lords is an anachronism to me, as it is mind you for the vast majority of the UK), but it's not the problem here.

Mind you, as I said up thread, I'm getting more and more minded for the government to make all religions equal and just insist on the civil ceremony being the only legal one.

The issue you have with CoE is that it charges for weddings instead of providing them as a free service.

I have no idea how you came up with that given that all I've talked about is the privilege afforded to the CofE and haven't mentioned money once.

But, as it seems I have failed to explain my position, I'll try again.

The issue I have is that the CofE holds an unjustifiably and excessively privileged position in England. I think that's wrong, but I could live with it if the CofE kept itself to itself. But when it wades into situations like this and uses its privileged position to try to stop legislation attempting to provide equality for consenting adults who have committed no crime but to fall in love, then I get cross.

Whether the CofE is doing this because of its selective interpretation of the Bible or to appease the more rampantly and openly bigoted sections of the Anglican dysfunctional family, I know not. I suspect it's a bit of both.

Whatever the reason behind it, if the CofE wishes to hang on to its privilege when gay marriages are legalised then I think it should be forced to conduct those marriages. If it really does think it will lead to the downfall of society then it would be welcome to disestablish itself and go off and enjoy it's anti-gay agenda without the advantage of all the extra privileges it currently enjoys.

See? Nothing about money.

Support gay marriage by signing this petition from the UK organisation Inclusive Church.....

www.change.org/petitions/church-of-england-not-in-our-name

No one is saying they will be forced to provide same sex marriage. Many churches now disciminate on things like divorce, or we will only marry you if you do our marriage counselling first, or a number of other reasons.

There are churches (methodist and Quaker) who want to be able to marry people, what right has the CofE to stop them?

Sashh, I am very sure you can be married in the Mehodist church, or did you mean same sex marriage?

The question of the remarriage of divorcees is, as you say locally decided. It's actually really hard to ask a couple about previous marriages and so some ministers have (wrongly in my mind) decided on a blanket rule of never conducting a wedding if a person has been married before.

However there are strict guidelines for those ministers who will consider. They are rightly there to protect the children of any previous marriage and not to allow a person to leave one spouse directly for the next as the whim takes them. Vows are serious but the church knows that sometimes the marriage dies before the death of a spouse.

As for marriage counselling, we do insist on it, for various reasons

It makes the couple take time out of wedding prep to make sure they are still spending time together thinking through the whole of their marriage, not just a day.

It helps avoid weddings that really should never take place (mil pressure for example)

Marriages that have had premarriage prep are statistically more likely to survive.

I could go on....

But i still have no problem with the marriage of a Gay couple.

Forget to say, the remarriage of divorcees is a recent thing, in the past it was never allowed.

bumpkinbillionaire

Sorry to burst your bubble but you are totally deluding yourself re what 'overwhelming majority of laity' in the catholic church think about gay marriage. You are painting a false image of the church here.

I am a catholic and you do not speak for me, my immediate family, my catholic extended family, friends, prayer group and millions in my native catholic country.

You are in a minority of western dissendants rebelling against the Word of God, trying to change our church , make it cose up to the world and its values, like you've already done.

You are part of all the prophesies, biblical and recent, how in the latter days many will fall away from a sound doctrine and follow false teachers.

What makes you so arrogant that you think you have the authority to rewrite the Bible, to change church's thousands old teaching on such an important fundamental matter as marriage and family , to mock God.

I sound angry, because I am angry, upset and feel betrayed that maybe you offer a sign of peace to me in church but secretly consider me a bigot, which I fully expect the world to call me but not my fellow sister in the church .
Jesus also got angry with people defiling the temple.

I have more right to be in my church because I respect the Word of God and believe in the marriage between a man and a woman, just as God established, and christians always believed , twenty, fifty, two hundred and two thousand years ago. Just like all the saints that helped shape our church did. And you know what, I am happy because I know that the catholic church will never ever change its position on this matter, never, even if we are to be thrown to the lions once again.

The most hilarious aspect of Great Britain is that its liberals are the people who support and encourage mass immigration and then, when the Muslims and bible faithful christians, like Polish catholics, like myself, come here and voice their views, signing C4m petitions , for example, they, the liberals, get most upset about it.

Strange logic.

Actually, plain stupidity if you ask me.

Stupid, as in... duh, what did you expect.

"There are churches (methodist and Quaker) who want to be able to marry people, what right has the CofE to stop them?"

Agree. And while I'd like all CofE churches to offer same-sex marriage, the least they can do is allow it for those churches/vicars who choose to offer it. A blanket ban for the whole CofE does not represent the views of its membership.

believe in the marriage between a man and a woman, just as God established

twinkletwirl, you're absolutely right. We should go back to the Bible for our definition of what marriage is.

So if you're a virgin and you get raped you should be forced to marry your rapist (Deu 22:28)

If you're a man you can have many wives (eg David, Solomon etc). Or wive(s) plus concubines.

And it's a-ok with god if you go into a city, slaughter all the men and forcibly take the women as wives. (Deu 21:11)

I'm with you, twinkletwirl! You start the petition calling for these proper Bible values to be brought back and I'll sign it! After all, it's what god wants!

twinkletwirl, I'm not rebelling against or mocking God. I don't have anything against your faith. But I don't care to be ruled by it, either. I'm Jewish. Why on earth would I hand power over my life to Polish Catholics, or any Catholics for that matter?

Gay marriage is important to me personally because I'm gay and I want to get married. But this is also about the power of minority faiths in a secular state, and frankly this whole debate is going to lead us more quickly (and rightly, in my view) to disestablishment. Am I right in thinking that quite a few Christians would welcome that? Wouldn't it free the Anglican church to be truly radical and on the side of the poor?

You sneer at how the British people let in immigrants and then don't like the values and beliefs they bring with them. I'm not sure I see what's wrong with that; my family is immigrant on both sides and they've done nothing but kvetch about the country for the last half century - that's the joy of living in a free country. What I do find a bit strange, though, is an immigrant who chooses to live here (and you're very welcome), is outraged that her (minority) faith doesn't dictate the law of the land, and then criticises the host nation for letting ber in. That is just odd.