Good arguements against believing in God?

[Topcat75]

Hi
This is my 1st post so be gentle! I am visiting my mum over Easter weekend with my 2 kids, she has just 'discovered' Christianity which i have no problem with but she has recently started trying to convince me to believe in God. (I dont believe and actually think religion is the reason for all the wars in the world) anyway, can you help me with some good back up reasons why i don't have to believe because at the mo whatever i say she thinks i am a lost soul that hasnt found Jesus yet!
(no abbreviations yet sorry- still working out net speak!)

Flamingo: 'intention works' could be interpreted that if someone decides, for instance, to learn to ride a bike/lose weight/get a better job and says a prayer about it, this person might put in more effort and more successful effort to acheive the desired result. But that could be said about wearing your lucky pants as well and in fact telling all your mates that you are going to do X can spur you on to do it successfully. It proves nothing about specific powers of prayer ie asking an imaginary being to act on your behalf.

And that stuff about how ill people who are prayed for get better quicker, well it's been demonstrated to be a load of old cock.

Your just doing a lot of guessing

I think I've read about that research. Where the patients who knew they were being prayed for actually had poorer outcomes. I think one of the possible explanations was performance anxiety. If you google prayer patients and performance anxiety you should find it quite quickly.

The power of prayer and it's effect on the sick is something that can be studied and tested by science very easily. One of the few things to do with faith that can be tested scientifically. Studies with rigorous methodology show no significant effect, and yes, if the patient knows they are being prayed for, even a negative effect.

solidgoldbrass's explanation on people's perception of the power of prayer is probably far nearer the mark.

Using quantum physics to explain that prayer works is a new one on me - pseudo science is excellent for getting impressionable people to believe you, but it does not follow the accepted scientific method (in the same way that nor does "intelligent design") and is thus utter nonsense.

OP, like many others have said already - ask her not to try to convert you or your children and respect her personal views in the way that you would wish her to respect your choice to be atheist (or "correct").

If she fails to do this, then you are probably best to walk away from the debate, as (from personal experience) it can get damaging to your relationship if you are forced down an uncompromising discussion.

Quite an interesting debate on 'intention' here.

To me prayer is like a form of hypnosis - put your mind into a neutral state and (in the church setting), an authority figure makes suggestions to your subconcious. If the suggestions are realistic then this act is bound to make the desired outcomes more likely but is not proof (IMO) of divine intervention.

BTW - what this 'intention' has to do with quantum physics I don't know - please can someone explain that one in laymans terms - should be interesting!

Quantum physics (and zero-point energy and string theory etc) are real scientific terms that cover broad, complex and cutting-edge areas of physics. As such, it is common to find woo merchants alternative types use bits of the jargon to try to insinuate that their ridiculous psuedoscientific ideas have a basis in real science.

Essentially, they bank on the fact that it's very unlikely their prospective suckers customers will have in-depth knowledge of quantum physics etc so they're unlikely to spot when the real science is being used as a veneer of truth over the steaming pile of horseshit unsupported claims being made.

Oh Snorbs you do make me chortle most heartily

OK - I am Christian, but I can see that this would be hard to deal with. In the same way I dont want people telling me my faith is stupid, I wouldn't dream of telling people their faith in no god is stupid.

So, here's how as a Christian, I'd say you should deal with it, firstly, don't argue - because then you have to justify your beliefs - it's a lot easier to justify a belief than to justify a non-belief. So, if she says that you're a 'lost soul that hasn't found Jesus yet' - reply with "possibly, but I'll have to do that in my own time." Or just cut it down with "I don't want to talk about my beliefs, you can tell me about yours, but I'm not going to discuss mine." Repeat.

Re wanting to get the DCs baptised, don't say "never" say, "that's their decision to make when they grow up, lots of churches baptise adults, I won't stand in their way if they want that, but I'm not going to make the decision for them."

Could I also suggest you miss Easter and go next weekend????

Or better still, buy your mother a years membership of the National Secular Society as an Easter present.....

I'll get my coat.

School holidays really make the religious threads become quite active....

I'm just on here to avoid the Brickmania everywhere else in the world.

I agree with headinhands. Just say 'mum, I'm happy for you, but it's not my bag and I'll raise my kids how I see fit.' We have evangelical friends who've told me I'm going to hell, I shouldn't do certain things, been generally Catholic / Buddhist / Mormon bashing at me in conversation. I've known them over a decade and they've never asked me what I believe at all (I'm an atheist). Any interest is seen as an opportunity to convert me. So I'm happy they're happy and I try to adopt a slug-like non-responsive 'hmm, hmm.' attitude. They usually stop after a while.

I see flamingo hasn't been back to educate us about her quantum physics experiments that allegedly prove "intention works". Wonder why.

I believe in god. It makes me happy to do so. I've no real evidence but it gives me comfort. But I would NEVER try to force my belief down anyone's throat and I've no time for anyone who does.

just ask her to respect your belief and you will respect hers.

But if she won't leave it. Ask her where god came from. If everything in the universe was created, what created god. and why don't we worship the being that is so powerful that it is capable of creating a being capable of creating a universe.

but then - who created a being capable of creating a being capable of creating a universe...

I tend to go for "I believe in God as much as you believe in Isis, Thor or Athene."

"If religious people responded to reason, there'd be no religious people".

Forget who said it, but it's perfectly true.

There are no "arguments" against the existence of God....just like there are no arguments against the existence of fairies, Big Foot or invisible unicorns. The theist bears the burden of proof, it's not our job to prove their claims false, that would be illogical and pointless, because what would we use for evidence?

There are, however, extremely compelling responses to the claims that religious folk use to shore up their beliefs. But whether they'll bother listening is another matter - most don't.

With your mother you just say, "Sorry, I'm not a believer, Mum, and I'm bringing the children up to decide for themselves". And leave it there.

Topcat

How did things go over the weekend? Did your relationship survive?

ImproperlyAcquainted: there is a logical, rational explanation for parental love, though. We nurture our offspring so as to give them a better chance of propagating our genes: love is the description we have given to this urge.

OP: there isn't really any need to find arguments. You either believe or you don't. If you don't, then there isn't a lot to say about the matter. You'll just have to listen, I'm afraid. So often the way with the fervent.

Thanks all for resonses, very interesting debate. All went fine, she did start to 'talk' to me about the dcs future and mine and how empty life would be without belief and i resisted the urge to shake her instead i calmly told her that i believed in my choices but may rethink things in the future but it would have to be me that makes the decision and i wasnt to be influenced by anything she had to say so it would be best if we talked about something else.
After a few huffs she made tea and changed the subject

Ps name changed not to hide but i love the new one

I agree with others that say that it is pointless to make up arguments. You believe what you believe and she believes what she believes. Remember "No." and "No thank you." can be a complete sentence.