Question for the Christians

[hiddenhome]

Just wonderin' 'n' musin' like. Do you ever get fed up or feel uncomfortable with the amount of blasphemy on the main boards? I've been noticing it more and more recently. I don't know why people think that this isn't offensive or unpleasant. I don't think they'd do it to other religions Makes me wonder why people are so vehemently anti Christian, then keep making these references. Also, can't understand why people can't equate a religious person's love for God to an atheist's love for their family and children. They wouldn't like to be insulted over their love for their dcs, but quite happily take the pee and dish it out to the faith people. Sometimes they're even hostile and aggressive about it. I find the boards quite slack liberally minded, but don't know why they don't extend this liberalism to everyone. If you truly choose equality, doesn't it mean that the equality should extend to those you don't agree with and even actively dislike?

I know we're supposed to take it as part of being a Christian, but was just wondering how others felt really.

[headinhands]

But jjkm I didn't create the world knowing the suffering that would befall so many. And I'm not a supernatural being with the ability to create an entire universe with mere words. So whose more guilty?

I used to be a Christian. I believed god was all love and light. I had ways of justifying the irreconcilable differences but for me they stopped working. They stopped because I looked at them the same way you do every other area of your life. Logically.

Think about why you feel the need to back out of the conversation. Doesn't your discomfort suggest a
dissonance you owe it to yourself to analyse?

[MrsMcCave]

God gave us free will. Therefore, bad things happen - because we make them happen. God doesn't treat people badly - we do.

Hope I haven't transgressed any "ignore seeker when she asks awkward questions" rule.

[headinhands]

But don't miracles contravene free will? If god is so hands off why the admonishment to pray in the nt asking for everything a believer needs. And as for god not hurting people? Eh? The ot is positively sodden with the blood of nations that were slaughtered on gods command.

[seeker]

"God gave us free will. Therefore, bad things happen - because we make them happen. God doesn't treat people badly - we do.

Hope I haven't transgressed any "ignore seeker when she asks awkward questions" rule."

No- but you've just reinforced my earlier point- anything good god did, everything bad, people did.

[seeker]

And just one example of an answered prayer would do something to shake my skepticism. Just one. One that stands up to any sort of scientific analysis.

[DoubleGlazing]

When did you last pray, seeker?

[MrsMcCave]

Prayer, as I see it, is for intercession: that for me is saying " I've messed this up, can you help". I suppose the theory is that if we ask God's guidance for everything, we won't mess up.

And as for the bloody OT, that's why Jesus came. Without him, we deserve nothing.

Can you tell I'm new to this?

[MrsMcCave]

Xposted! You can't blame the creator of the universe for indulging in the perfect catch-22, seeker.

[headinhands]

So what you're saying is that the adults, kids and babies that were slaughtered in the ot deserved it as far as god was concerned, but somehow he didn't like killing them, or got fed up, so decided to come to earth and die on a cross so that somehow that meant he didn't need to kill anyone anymore but could just love everyone and never hurt anyone again. Really. I mean doesn't that just sound incredulous?

[seeker]

"When did you last pray, seeker?"

Why?

[headinhands]

You don't come across as
Wet behind the ears at all mrsmccave :)

What I like about debating here is being forced to check my assumptions for contradictions/fallacies which can only be a good thing for us.

[DoubleGlazing]

"When did you last pray, seeker?"

"Why?"

You're looking for examples of answers to prayer. Best place to start is to try it yourself, IMHO. Perhaps more likely to bring you an answer than the places you're currently looking.

[VegimalStyle]

Who should you pray to if you find it impossible to believe in a deity?

[seeker]

I'm looking on a thread with committed Christians on it. I would have thought that was the perfect place to look!

[BonfireOfKleenex]

"Those kids will be no worse off in the next life for it, but if one were to arrogantly assume God will just take care of them, and neglect to provide the help they are capable of giving, that person will eventually have to answer for it, and will sorely regret it. Given the choice between the two, I'd rather be the starving child, personally."

How does this make any sense at all You could say that just about everyone (for example) in the Western world is neglecting to provide all the help they are capable of giving - so are we all going to hell?

At what point is 'the help they are capable of giving' enough? A £10 direct debit per month? A £50 one? Your entire salary? Or would only actually going over there and personally looking after the starving children be good enough? It just makes no sense.

[DoubleGlazing]

Vegima you can still pray to God anyway if you don't believe in him/her. Even the apostles didn't even have faith as large as a mustard seed, apparently! :o

Seeker no, I'm afraid here is not the perfect place to look. You can only view our relationships with God from the outside. That's so different to having your own. What is it that you're seeking, BTW? :)

[VegimalStyle]

But doubleglazing what is the point if you don't believe? Surely you need faith to make it work? Who are you praying to if you don't believe that anyone will hear?

[headinhands]

Double. I was a Christian. I thought I had a relationship with god. I prayed. The whole shebang. I have seen it from the inside. But then went on to look at it in its entirety applying the very same reasoning skills that I do for everything else in my life. All of the good feelings I had while a Christian can be explained in psychological terms. The fact that I was a Christian was mere geography. I never saw one verifiable miracle in mine or anyone else's life. I still see no evidence of a deity who is remotely interested in earth. Or maybe I wasn't a true Christian.

[DoubleGlazing]

I'd say that taking the step to pray at all Vegimal was a symbol of an open mind, not ruling out the possibility that the God you're praying to is real.

[headinhands]

I'm with you Bonfire on the 'their next life will be better'. If Christians really believed that then why do things to prolong anyone's life? I cant imagine that a Christian in this country would starve themselves to death to get to heaven quicker because it would be so much better. It's such a grotesque excuse.

[BonfireOfKleenex]

See I can sort of understand Christianity if you look at it only in the context of 'the teachings of Jesus'. So you are following a philosophy if you like - looking at situations in life and saying 'what would Jesus do'.

THEN it makes sense to say 'look inside yourself and the answers will be revealed'.

I can even see that it might help to imagine/believe that you are having a 'discussion' with God / Jesus as part of this process.

But it loses me when Christians start talking about another entity actually listening. And creating the earth, and waiting for us on judgement day etc.

[DoubleGlazing]

headinhands thank you for your post. I agree that religion can be shaped by geography and if I'd been born elsewhere then my spirituality might have taken some other form. That doesn't bother me or detract from my faith though, as I hope I am a Christian of the liberal variety. Out of interest what sort of church did you go to?

[VegimalStyle]

Problem is I'm an empiricist and have a mind for science. I'm willing to believe in the possibility of a god, but as yet have seen no evidence of such. Therefore I cannot currently believe, worship or pray to a god. If I had some hard evidence I would as a good scientist adhere to it, but this once again bypasses the faith requirement.

[headinhands]

Just about every one going double. I was a denominational tart.

[headinhands]

I don't understand how believers of yahweh have gone from the veritable hi jinx of the ot to Christian liberalism. When you read the bible it doesn't exactly read like the manifesto for the lib dems.