"I am not religious - I believe in Jesus"

[JinglingAllTheWay]

This was the message my friend just sent me and I just wondered what others thought.

Do you say you are 'religious' if you believe in God/go to church/ life tour life according to the bible etc.

I would have said that said friend was incredibly religious! She has very strict views on what can be watched on tv / what books are allowed to be read etc

How do you define religious and would you say you are?

cats I don't think that its quite as simple as wanting to 'start a religion for non-Jewish people'. Jesus was fufilling the prophecies from the old testement. The 'religion' if you want to call it that existed from creation, but this was the next and most crucial phase iyswim.

That is the way that the bible is written, yes, but it was written by people who wanted to demonstrate that prophecies were fulfilled, and interpreted various events as evidence for this.

The perpetual virginity of Mary is hardly a central Christian message.

I think everyone agrees that Mary was a virgin when Jesus was conceived. The bible is pretty clear on this.

Whether she was a virgin after that is debatable, and whether James was Jesus' brother. Even more obscure is the immaculate conception of Mary herself. You have to accept that some church doctrines are extra-biblical, but you can't blame the bible writers for that.

Most of Mariology came about in the ecumenical councils several hundred years after the earthly life of Christ, including adopting her as the Theotokos, and what it means to be the Theotokos.

No, not everyone agrees that Mary was a virgin when Jesus was conceived. That is what I meant by the controvery over translation.

Additionally, if Jesus was not biologically related to Joseph than what is the relevence of the 2 (different!) genealogies linking Joseph and David.

Mary being a virgin at the time of Jesus' birth is fundamental to Christianity.

Whether or not she was a virgin afterwards is irrelevant really. I personally don't think that God would have intended for her to need to be a virgin for the rest of her life after she had concieved and given birth to Jesus.

He was still born into Joseph's (and therefore David's) family even though this was through adoption, essentially.

My church classes itself as a "non-religious church". By that they mean without all the set rules and ceremonies etc. It isn't wacky way out, it is part of an established church.

You have a greater knowledge that me, Cats.

Can you tell me which biblical translation says that Mary, a young and very faithful teen, was not a virgin? Which church bases its doctrine on this?

I think that it was important that Mary was a virgin to prove that Jesus was a miracle, supernatural. Had Mary not been a virgin, there would have been doubt, obviously, even though he didn't start his ministry until he was 30. Beyond that, I can't see why it would have been important for Mary to have remained a virgin. The bible isn't explicit on this and any church which has this as a doctrine is using extra-biblical reasoning.

"Can you tell me which biblical translation says that Mary, a young and very faithful teen, was not a virgin? Which church bases its doctrine on this?"

I didnt say that any church based its doctrine on Mary not being a virgin, most of them are very keen on the idea. My point was that it is a topic of debate whether the hebrew word 'Almah' should have been translated to mean virgin.

"I think that it was important that Mary was a virgin to prove that Jesus was a miracle, supernatural. Had Mary not been a virgin, there would have been doubt, obviously, even though he didn't start his ministry until he was 30." Again that doesnt exclude the possibility that people gave a version of events that they thought looked best.

"Beyond that, I can't see why it would have been important for Mary to have remained a virgin. The bible isn't explicit on this and any church which has this as a doctrine is using extra-biblical reasoning." Why does the importance (or otherwise) of Mary remaining a virgin to the bible story have the slightest bearing on whether it is true or not?

You provide the biblical references, and I will give you the doctrinal reasoning :)

And that is apropos of what?

Oh, just to keep the conversation going...

Christianity took the virgin birth myth from ancient mythology. Zeus was pretty good at impregnating from the heavens, dionysus and Horus were allegedly virgin births as were numerous others. Horus was born in a stable too, such a coincidence!