Do you give regularly to your church?

[AtYourCervix]

Financial I mean.

Could I be ever so nosey and ask how much a month?

I've never done a regular direct debit giving thing - more sporadic if I have extrra and I'm wondering how much is acceptable. (by no means well off but could find a bit extra iyswim).

When I was a member of a church we were regularly 'encouraged' to give - the formula was 10% of your gross income, plus extra for a fast offering, and money on top of that for the education and building funds. The head of the congregation would schedule a yearly tithing interview to go over your contributions, and if you were less than a 100% tither, then you were not allowed to participate in the most important church rituals. Lots of people lied about their income because of this.

You see that's just wrong, Bearskin. That's exploitative and manipulative and all sorts of other -atives, probably. Not in the spirit of the founder of Christianity, who was all about caring for the poor and needy and breaking away from legality. The early churches shared all their possessions and gave out of a central pot, which is an interesting way of thinking about it, if slightly different.

On balance, seems like some of our churches get it right-ish with the whole stewardship day thing, informing congregations but not pushing, and some go way over the top with unreasonable demands which ultimately push people away. There must be a middle ground where people are encouraged to give out of what they are able, slightly less woolily than some anglican type churches do it, and where people are thanked and appreciated for all they do and also where they can join in any bloody thing in the church they want to.

Stressed - would it be possible for some of the finance matters to be raised at the church AGM (or whatever it is called)? I am a member of the CoS and am a little ashamed to say I've never been to one - I don't think my overactive DSs would enjoy it. My Mum goes to the ones held at her church (also CoS) and says that they are quite open about finances there and that the annual accounts are discussed with the congregation.

I totally agree Moody, and it was another reason for me to leave. I wanted to feel spiritually lifted and happy at church, instead I felt guilty all the time as I was made to feel just not good enough. I know now that it is deliberately done (called the double bind), and am so glad to be free of it.

Jaffa, what happens at our Annual Stated Meeting is that the treasurer (who has been in post for over 30 years and is a firm part of the ruling elite) reads the balance sheets to the people attending. Like this -

Expenditure:
stipend xxxpounds
minister's travel expenses xxxpounds
Scottish Power xxxpouds
and so on

Income:
Free Will Offerings xxxpounds
Donations xxxpounds
and so on

It conforms with requirements but only just and if anyone tries to discuss the money issues, it's brushed aside as not being the time to discuss it. It doesn't help that almost no-one attends. The one in April this year was attended by 11 people, so not even quorate. People are just so browned off with the place, especially after the whole carry on with the new, now ex, minister. Also, our congregation is mainly very elderly, many over 80 and a good few over 90. We have lost most of the people in the 30-50 age group because they just can't be bothered with the way things are and have voted with their feet.All the people that are left are either in such a minority, like me and a few others, completely disengaged from the church and just coming along on a Sunday, too old to have the energy or will to do anything about it or they are part of the problem.

Cat, yes there is a hierarchy right through the church organisation. How it works is :

individual church
Presbytery (ruling court for a group of geographically close parishes)
Assembly (national ruling body thing that meets for a week once a year)

In practice, we have head offices in Edinburgh who are in charge of carrying out the Assembly's decisions and the day to day admin stuff of running the CoS.

Each church is run by the Kirk Session: the minister and a bunch of what's called ruling elders who are lay members who have been ordained into the Eldership. They are assisted in matters of finance and fabric by the Board of Management, made up of same minister and elders and some ordinary members of the congregation. When things go badly wrong in a congregation, Presbytery is supposed to be able to step in and help but things seem to have gone very badly wrong in our case, even though they know what goes on, mainly because the ruling elite ( a group of the elders who have been in positions for many, many years and think the church is theirs) don't want help, consistently deny that there are any problems and even lie big time to cover their own backs. There is also the fact that Presbytery can make suggestions but it doesn't appear to be able to force anything upon us. For instance, they recently recommended that we ask for a what is called an interim minister (a kind of troubleshooting minister). They couldn't force us to take one, that decision, like almost everything else, is down to Session. Session, unsurprisingly, voted no. Sadly some of the elders who might have voted yes to it just didn't turn up, because it was pointless. It will all come tumbling down, though, because our Presbytery, like every other one, has to cut a fair number of ministries in the next few years because the CoS is running out of money. All this will not look good for us when they are drawing up their new Presbytery Plan, but some people are just too blinkered and short sighted to see that.

I know that when the minister left, she went to 121 and had a very in depth conversation with some of the higher-ups, but again, nothing seems to have come of it. They appear to be putting things down to a clash of personalities or some such rubbish. I actually feel, and I'm not alone in this, very let down. I thought that this time, they had gone too far and that change was inevitable. But it's not really looking like it at the moment.

The whole thing is about control and empire building. A small group, who happen to be in charge, think that they know how the church should be. However, pride and jealousy are big sins and, sooner or later, people reap what they sow. My challenge at the moment is to try to forgive and move on and to keep working for the unity of the church and for the good of God's Kingdom and people here. I think that God is giving me to opportunity to rise above these people and the things that have happened to help take our wee flock into the future.

Bearskin, you had a lucky escape. That all business with tithing and forcing you to give more than you're happy with by punishing you is SO unchristian. Were you a Mormon? They are quite famous for using the double bind to make you feel guilty all the time. All the legalism is pretty unpleasant also, especially when you actually look at what Jesus actually said and did.

Stressed :( It just makes me sad when I hear about things like this. What happened to the fruit of the Spirit??

Bearskin - :( too. Don't blame you for leaving. Did you find somewhere more welcoming, or did this push you away altogether? :(

MHM, oh aye, fruits of the spirit sadly lacking here. No joy, no love, no long suffering, precious little kindness, not much peace (but a lot of trying to keep the peace) or goodness, little gentleness, little goodness and a very great lack of self control. It's a shame because there are some very, very good people who are doing their level best to lead a Christian life and act accordingly. It's the usual story of a small minority spoiling it for everyone else and it's driving some of the best people away.

Moody It encouraged me into researching the background of the church that I attended, and I ended up researching my way out of it.

Fair enough, bearskin. I'm a full believer in using our brains. :( though that part of the church of God should use such shocking tactics and have such a wobbly past. Suppose it all comes down to being human (some less than others? )

We give £200 per month, standing order.

Churches have to engage their parishioners in their annual giving. It should not be done by a nod and a wink. There is no shame in asking for money - ministries are expensive.

We have a couple of Sundays per year dedicated to asking for money. The gospel message is very clear, and this is the message on the first Sunday; the next is to collect in tax-efficient pledges. The main thrust of the APCM is the presentation of finances.

We don't pass around a plate as we feel that visitors should not pay for the running of our church, and church family be using tax-efficient planned giving.

stressed yes I was, from birth so I do have a slight excuse

The double bind is a famous trick of theirs, as is 'Milk before Meat'. I honestly can't believe how blindly stupid I was for so long; and that for a short space of time was willing to put my dd through the same horrors that I had endured.

Thankfully, the internet provided the basic information, and I went from there.

Bearskin, you weren't being stupid at all. You had never known any different and the mind games run very, very deep. There is a hold on you that other people on the outside find very difficult to grasp. For many years, in a previous life, I was involved with Jehovah's Witnesses and the things that I believed, thought, felt and said actually stagger me now. And I didn't even have the excuse of being born into it. I now believe that they (and the LDS) are a very dangerous, insidious cult.

While the JWs don't tithe, there is a great pressure to give a lot as well as the competitive preaching (giving of your time in man hours). They also exert double bind and "milk before meat", the latter to the extent of actually lying to outsiders about their beliefs because of their policy of "theocratic warfare" and not letting the enemy know what you're up to. Then there is all the leaving decisions up to your conscience rubbish, we all know what that means, especially as you have to justify all your actions to Jehovah and live in fear of Armageddon. Even after I left, it took years before I lost the fear and started to see a bit more clearly.

However, that is very clearly off topic.

MindtheGappp, our giving isn't done by a nod and a wink, it's just not really dealt with in a nitty gritty sort of way, it has never, in my recollection, been preached from the pulpit and hasn't been broached with the congregation since our last planned giving campaign 8 years ago, which means that many people have not reviewed their giving since then. Part of the promises we make when we are confirmed is that we will give an appropriate part of our time, talents and money, so everyone knows that they should give. We also encourage regular giving by issuing members with freewill offering envelopes. We don't push SOs or anything like that and we don't do DDs at all, because some people on Session feel that it isn't appropriate because it gives the impression that we care more about people's offerings than about their attendance.

Stressed I agree with you about the cult thing (there is a great checklist by Steve Hassan that really opened my eyes) and everything else you've said above. I can't tell you how good it is to know that there's somebody else who's experienced this stuff.

Anyway, just to put it back on topic, we had to tithe, that was the basic contribution, plus the other 'gifts' as I listed. Then you had to give them your time - visiting other members once a month, plus 3hrs of meetings on a sunday, plus church callings, family night once a week, childrens meetings and cleaning your local church. You are supposed to help other members as and when needed and any spare time left is for your family.

Members don't know where the money goes, and are actively discouraged from asking.

Stressed,

We have a completely different attitude to giving. We feel that it should be planned, as costs are long term. If you rely on envelopes, the giving is very much based on emotion and response to the message of particular sermons. Our budget is in excess of £1.5 million, and we need that to support our clergy and staff teams, our local ministries and mission partners. We also have a humungous parish share. We send 5 or 6 of our young people to third world missions ever year and we have to know that we have the funds to support them. This is in addition to our long term missions.

Same with the JWs, Bear, except with the tithing. I know it's definite requirement of LDS, though, there is a flourishing LDS church in my town and oftentimes the young American lads come around. Some of them are very pushy others just appear to be glad if you don't slam the door in their faces.

JWs are the same re everything else, though. There is a whole list of things to give for, building work, publications, supporting the production of all their stuff, maintaining your own hall, helping support pioneers, overseers etc... the list goes on. It's all left to your conscience, though . However, if you aren't giving enough, the elders will have a little chat with you about it ( again .)The demands on time are similar. 3 meetings of 2 hours plus a week, plus the competitive preaching (which has to be catalogued minutely by the way), daily things like the Examining the Scriptures programme that families have to do every morning for 20-30 minutes as soon as they get up.. You even have to give up your holidays from work to attend the conventions and mini weekend ones because these are more important than a leisurely family holiday. There is a weekly reading programme and a weekly family bible study complete with re-enacting bible dramas, dressing up as characters etc. etc., as well as all the prep for all the meetings like the weekly study article from the Watchtower, then the chapter from whichever WBTS book that is being studied on the Tuesday night, then the homework for the Theocratic Ministry School and Service Meeting on a Thursday. And then the extra commitments when the district overseer comes or whatever. And as you say, church cleaning and maintenance, visiting other members, maintaining other halls. It actually takes over your whole life and you get so sucked in, you don't notice or mind, because you are putting God first in your life. It's actually no wonder JWs never used to encourage education or the pursuit of a career, no-one ever had any time for that.

Oh dear, when I think about it now, I actually can't believe that I was so sucked in.

In the church that I am in now, I actually don't think that there is enough pressure put on people, either for their time or their money. A bit more openness about expectations and needs might go a long way, particularly if it was accompanied by a bit more openness about decision making and future planning.

Mindthe Gappp, our church doesn't have anything like that level of commitment or needs. We need about 45k a year to break even. We don't have mission partners, ministries or missions, outreach programmes, any staff other than the minister, the organist and the cleaner, we also don't really have any young people. So, we really only NEED enough money to pay the bills, meet stipend requirements and fulfil our presbytery and CoS dues. We also are not allowed to hold reserves of any more than about 30% of our annual takings under OSCR regulations, so any extra money would just get swallowed up by the Church as a whole.

The envelope things are to encourage regular giving. You get issued with a year's worth of envelopes in June, all are dated Sunday by Sunday, for you to fill in advance of the service. Everyone has their own individual envelope number that remains the same for ever, so that the person who holds the data can let you know, at 6monthly intervals, how much you have given. You are supposed to put the same amount in every week, that's what the planned giving campaign that we had years ago was about. People committed to putting xpounds in their envelope every week. It's just that it hasn't ever been revisited or mentioned again.

Money and the church, it's a contentious issue

It is contentious, but shouldn't be. There is nothing to be embarrassed about.

Stressed In the mormons, females were told constantly that we were only good for raising children and homemaking. Were your experiences in JWism the same?

And I totally forgot about all the scripture study stuff - I've been out for some time now and it shows It was:- personal study morning and evening, family study every evening, study class twice a week, plus a sunday night for a 'fireside' study.

Just as a by the by, the mormons sacked all their janitorial staff so they could send more money to Salt Lake (where they are busy building a $3 billion mall)!!

No wonder I'm a happier person now; I'm not chasing my own tail doing busywork!

Bear. yes, something like that. Education was actively discouraged in girls because women were for preaching and looking after husband and family. It was a man's job to support his family (that was one of the defining marks of a Christian male.) Men were discouraged from pursuing a career as well, however, unless it was one that was useful to the Society. So lawyers, doctors and whatnot were encouraged because they could help deal with lawsuits, hospital liaison etc. Other than that, men were expected to provide a basic standard of living for their families and then concentrate on the preaching work. That's why so many of them are things like window cleaners.

It was a bit different from the LDS though. Because we were all expecting Armageddon any minute, we were discouraged from doing anything but preach. Most witnesses at the time had either no DCs or just 1 or 2 kids because they had just come out of a period (during the 60's and 70's) where they were told not to have children because the end would come in 1975 and the preaching work was much more urgent. They could have kids after the End came. By the time that I was involved (80's and 90's), the emphasis was still on preaching but the whole no kids thing had waned a bit. Have to say, though, that at that time, most witnesses I knew who had kids were converts as opposed to ones born into it.

Women very definitely had their place, though. Certainly no women were allowed positions of responsibility within the church or anything like that. We weren't even allowed to lead a bible study if there was a man with us, or witness on the doors if a man was there (Man being the head of the woman.) Women also had to be v. submissive, modest etc. etc.

That whole 1975 thing was a bit mental. People quit their jobs, sold their houses and possessions, cashed in insurances policies, everything because when the end came, they wouldn't need anything like that. Then they all sent all the money to the Society, to help support the "slave class". I remember seeing a whole bunch of Witnesses going up to the top of a local hill to sit and wait for the end to come one day in 1975. They all headed for "the high places." so that they would be safe and get a good view.

Do you know, I think that you can tell something is a cult by the way it totally monopolises your time, as much as by all the evil stuff they do. JW's didn't have janitorial staff either. They had hall maintenance teams where everyone took turns at cleaning, decorating, gardening and whatnot. When I think of it now, Witness stuff too up hours and hours every single day. The morning stuff, the daily personal study, the family study, the meeting prep, the 6 hours of meetings, the field service, the duties, the weekly study.... Now, I go to church, and have a lot of commitments there, but nothing like then. I don't even have to spend hours studying for services And I don't live with the fear and guilt about never being good enough to make it through Armageddon.

Wow - I knew that JW's had some differences from us but that is mind blowing. Mormon men are actively encouraged to get into the best career/highest paying job they can find, as money=blessings from God. The better or more high paying job you have, the higher the calling you will receive. The more children you have reflects on your worthiness too.

I agree with you about the time monopoly thing; there's definitely no such thing as just being a member. You have commitments to fulfill - to the church, other members, family etc, then everything else that they 'ask' of you. For a church that openly states they are family friendly, they give you so much to do that members, especially men, hardly have time to see their families.

So far, mormonism hasn't given a definite date for the end times, but they do insist on food storage. It used to be two years worth, but has been cut back to a year - I haven't a clue how they imagine it is achievable, but it's another thing to beat members up with.

I was taught as a child that angels watch our every move, and know our every thought - that to think of a sin is as bad as doing it. So glad I've managed to get myself and my family free of it.

I am a member of an internet board dedicated to ex and former mormons, and I know there are boards for former JW's.

Prosperity theology isn't really something that JW's go in for at all. In fact we were constantly encouraged to be content with very little and definitely not to pursue success in this world. I think that the society doesn't have a definite date for the end any more, they may have learned some lessons from all the failed predictions that started over 100 years ago. After the failed 1975 thing, the end was expected mid 80's and then at the end of the millennium. After these didn't happen, they stopped giving dates, as far as I know, but it's always there and always imminent. No-one talks about the failed things, though, it's all shove under the carpet ass incomplete light, replaced by New light. Did you know that, as far as I know, it is still current light that JW women can't have a bob, because it makes you go bald. That was introduced in about 1921 and still hadn't been withdrawn when I left.

JW's believe angels are everywhere as well, working to keep the congregation clean. I knew a brother who told a story about an unbaptised publisher whom he was mentoring. The man had apparently given up smoking but was caught in a sneaky fag by a witness passing a bus stop who grassed him up to the elders. This was given as an example of the angels at work to protect Jehovah's people Thinking a sin, or even about a sin, was definitely as bad, and all sorts of things were sinful, even down to the books you read or the music you listened to or even allowing your child to eat a bit of birthday cake at nursery. I had friends who walked out of their daughter's school prizegiving because the local minister was there and the kids were going to sing a hymn (their daughter was excused this) because even listening to music from another religion was forbidden.

Didn't realise the food storage used to be 2 years. It's obvious those in charge don't realise the limitations of houses outside the states, isn't it. We most definitely would never be able to find space for a years worth of food and water, never mind all the sanitizing stuff, loo roll, medication and everything else that goes with it.

If you want an idea how they expect you to do it this is actually a lovely site with loads of nice, frugal recipes and a bit of an insight into how a person's mind works, beautiful photos as well. Here and here actually have schedules for you to follow. You must need a lot of spare cash every week/month. I do agree, though, that some food storage is a good thing. I have about 3 months worth or so of a hoard because I am paranoid about running out of money. Not something to hold over a persons head, though.

There are a load of boards for ex witnesses or people who want to leave but aren't quite ready to be shunned, but I've been away from them for so long that it's actually like a different life now and it has no hold over me anymore. Although, it took a long time to get away from the fear and the nagging doubt.

I'm glad that you have found a happier, safer life outside, away from all the guilt and fear.

I've seen those sites, and compared to the mormon owned ones recommended by the church leaders, these ones are fab

When I was deep in their clutches I ran a six month storage, as well as a 72hr emergency bag. I still have the 72hr supply, but it's now my Oh Fuck RuckSack, and have a few weeks supply of goods - just in case.

Mormonism is all about being american. All the books, manuals, lessons etc are americanised, and there is even some obscure theology about being born into the church as a utah/american mormon, and how it means that you are more blessed than everyone else. The stupid rules are still there - no more than two earrings, must wear the sacred underwear, be uber modest etc.

The angels thing always made me laugh, as I knew it was actually other members tattling on each other. They have no idea of personal boundaries at all and think nothing of asking the most intrusive questions under the guise of fellowshipping.

I've been out for 8 years, and now help others find their way out. Isn't life amazing without all that fear and guilt?

I know we're not supposed to on MN, but here's a (((hug))) from one suvivor to another

I stopped going to my local baptist church last year when the preacher informed the congregation that anyone who was not paying the 10% tythe was 'stealing from God'. It really upset me because I just couldn't afford that at the time (and still can't) but knew that when our financial situation changed I would be more than happy to donate as much as I can to the church. We were struggling financially at the time and it was something I had been praying a lot about and that was just the final straw for me. I am only just considering going back to church now (a year later) but my faith hasn't changed in all that time. To me church just puts more pressure on me that I don't need. It doesn't seem to help me