Christians, What Do You Think Of Spiritualists/Clairvoyants?

[CuriousMama]

Do you think that people who contact the dead are dabbling with evil? Or are you open minded about it?
Do you know of verses in the bible that condemn or praise contacting the dead? I've tried to study this but keep getting confused (which doesn't take much )
Just curious as I'm unsure what to think myself as a Christian. Feeling very on the fence at the moment.
And yes I'm being chicken and have changed my name but I'm regular here (too much tbh ) I just don't want to be judged on this matter.

Regarding any of the occultish practices outlined in this thread (mediums, spiritism, tarot cards, palmists, etc.) I would have nothing to do with them myself and would warn anyone else against associating themselves with them. The Bible is that which God has preserved for us that we might know Him, that He might teach us and maintain us through the person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ, upon whom the entire book is focussed. In addition to being instructive by what it says, it can also be helpful with what it does not say. Think of the godly men and women of the Bible. How many of them do you find visiting and dabbling with these aforementioned practices? Did Abraham seek help from a palmist? Did David hunt for a clairvoyant when his son died? Did Hannah seek a reading when she wanted a child? No, no and no. All of these folk sought and found everything they ever needed, in all circumstances of their lives, in God. So too can we (and not in a wishy-washy theoretical sense, but in a very real and wonderful sense) if we believe and trust in the person of Christ as our sin bearer, our substitute, our Saviour.

There is of course the account in 1Samuel28 of king Saul (not a godly man if you read the preceding and subsequent chapters) seeking assistance from a clairvoyant. It was not a good thing to do. There is much that could be said about this encounter, none of which would encourage the activity.

There are other cases we could consider where godly men and women had their affections taken over by false gods whom they worshipped, having departed from the one, true God.

For the above reasons I have never had anything to do with these things. I suspect that many of the people involved are completely false, money-making scammers who prey on the unwell, the sad, the lonely, the weak, the bereaved, etc. However, it would not surprise me if some of them are real and have been visited with some sort of ability to 'consult' the spirit dimension from time to time. But what do think energises this ability? It's certainly not God. There's only one other person it could be and that is the devil. When they exercise this 'ability' are they actually contacting the dead? No (careful reading of the Bible makes this clear), the devil's angels (i.e. evil spirits or demons) are those with whom communication is being conducted.

CM, I don't know what a spiritualist church is but if they practice or condone any of these things here considered, I would strongly urge you and your friend to keep away. Likewise, any 'church' where prayer is connected with something or someone, other than the Lord Jesus (1Timothy2v5), keep away.

flamebat and curiousmama agree with you both on the ouija boards
I used to read the tarot cards but gave them up

Can't say I've ever used a Ouija board or tarot cards or seen a medium or palmist. I'm too much of a 'fraidy cat about those things and have known too many people who had unpleasant experieces with them.

Thanks flamebat and cardiganbay

I've been praying for discernment and tbh I'm erring away from spiritualism as it doesn't feel right. I attended my regular CofE morning service yesterday and felt the holy spirit and I think he's the only spirit I'll be dealing with in future.

Saw this and couldn't resist bumping it up. Surely we must acknowledge that the established Church recognises that there really is something out there otherwise why would they have vicars and priests trained to do exorcism - or is that a whole other area of discussion?

As one whose husband has been to do excorsicm- It's very scarey and I don't like him dabbling in it, but it's part of the role of a priest and he follows strict guidelines. He rings me before he goes in and as soon as he goes out. The most serious case in a family home turned out to be an abusive situation (uncle abusing teenage daughter)...manifesting itself in poltergheist (sp) type stuff

The church doesn't deny the exsistence of the spiritual realm - but acknowledges our limitations as humans, who have limited knowledge and power and requires us to leave those things with God to deal with. (being fluffy and not technical)

My family (secular non faith) were desperate to ask a mediums help when my nan died- it was expensive (money they didn't have) and in the end it wasn't what they really needed. They had a bad expereince...they should have stuck with feeling her presence in a room, seeing her for a moment at the top of the stairs kind of expereinces. (that's how I feel)

ANything spiritual that charges is wrong IMO...even if it's only 2 pounds. You can experince spirits without paying and you certainly can't be guaranteed that mediums know or can control what they are dabbling with.

Having said that it's an area I feel I have gifts in, but I want to use them in a way I and the church I love deem to be healthy. For me that is healing- not healing that we think is best but the healing that God knows is best...i.e not cure cancer neccesarily but maybe bring a person a sense of peace and acknowledgment that they are dying. Healing doesn't always mean physical or cure.

Finally- so many people pursue things like this today and it is expensive..they are darn lucky that the vicar and the c of e- to whom the mess falls often in the end- is still free!

What Do You I Of Spiritualists/Clairvoyants????

I think - like people of most beliefs and lifestyles that they're lovely people.

However, I believe that what they're practising goes against what I believe in as a Christian

Love to eloborate - but having the manic week from hell (with AF landed in the middle of it too - just to make it even better LOL) and need to feed my children.

Gosh....

I was confirmed CofE a couple of years ago and am also a practicing spiritualist and everything that goes along with it....

Quote from monstrousmommy -

"Finally- so many people pursue things like this today and it is expensive..they are darn lucky that the vicar and the c of e- to whom the mess falls often in the end- is still free!"

You lost me there

do you mean didn't understand me tamba??

Been thinking some more on this and we have come across several situations where churches has behaved badly in this area- so the church and christianity is no angel. For example, the church that told a young woman she was possessed and forced an excorcism upon her- purely becasue she disagreed with something they were doing. That messed her up lots. Churches can also abuse people spiritually and control them in they was they bad spiritualists/ clairvoyants could too I suppose.

have just seen this and would like to add some thoughts. my mother used to say that the few bad people will always spoil it for the rest, which is true in a way because charlatans sometimes get more publicity because it confirms people's opinions about mediumship. i believe that people are entitled to hold and express their own opinions, although sometimes what is being said is truly abhorrent. i can only say that my own experiences have come before my beliefs and as a result of those experiences, my belief system has changed somewhat. i realise that this might upset some of you, i no longer consider myself as catholic but as a spiritual person. i do not condemn people for their beliefs but find them interesting and someone who i might learn something from. different people have different path/s in life, if everyone had the same ideas life would be boring imho. i feel sad for those charlatans who use other people for their own ends because they are just tarnishing something that might help that person

Well I've attended spiritual church from being a child and we also don't have to pay to pray to god , we pray to the same god and sing beautiful hymns, do we have proof of anything really , I think whatever church your comfortable with and feel a sense of love and brotherhood of man is likely to be the one god has led you to for whatever reason. I agree people can turn in desperation after the loss of someone they love and there is good and bad in every cart , to be fair there will be people out there who claim to be mediums which is damaging, but a reputable medium will be able to convey something personal that only the two people would no, there is also priests out there or have been that claim to be priests , followers of god , doing god's work on earth but have committed hedious crimes . Spiritualism is a registered religion.

Mediums are also free , at least once a week at a local spiritual church , some people prefer private sittings in which there usually is a charge but nowhere near what the Catholic churches have in there pockets.

“Do you know of verses in the bible that condemn or praise contacting the dead?”

There are none that praise this practice.
These are some of those which condemn it.

”There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or onewho practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For all who do these things are an abomination to the LORD, and because of these abominations the LORD your God drives them out from before you.”
Deuteronomy 18:10-12

“Give no regard to mediums and familiar spirits; do not seek after them, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:31

“And the person who turns to mediums and familiar spirits, to prostitute himself with them, I will set My face against that person and cut him off from his people.”
Leviticus 20:6

“And when they say to you, “Seek those who are mediums and wizards, who whisper and mutter,” should not a people seek their God? Should they seek the dead on behalf of the living?”
Isaiah 8:19

“And he burned his sons as an offering in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, and used fortune-telling and omens and sorcery, and dealt with mediums and with necromancers. He did much evil in the sight of the LORD, provoking Him to anger.”
2 Chronicles 33:6

Also in the bible....
• Deuteronomy 22:28-29; God's punishment
for the raping of a virgin is to pay her father 50 shekels of silver and marry her for life. The rapist was seen as ruining someone else's property, not ruining a young girl's life.

Forcing a girl to marry her rapist and have her father accept some money as compensation is disgusting.

• 2 Samuel 7:11; God, through Nathan, says he is going to punish David's affair with Bathsheba by making all of David's wives prostitutes. God making David's wives prostitutes, despite what His own law said, is not moral.

• Leviticus 26:29; God describes how he will punish people by making them eat the flesh of their own sons and daughters.

• Joshua 6:20-21; God helps the Israelites destroy Jericho, killing "men, women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.

• Deuteronomy 2:32-35; God has the Israelites kill everyone in Heshbon, including children. Later in chapter 3:3-7, God commands they do the same to the city of Bashan.

• 1 Numbers 31:7-18; God decides to not kill everyone this time. This time, He commands the Israelites to kill all the Midianites except the virgins, whom they will take as spoils of war. Killing everyone besides virgins and using them as sex slaves

Says these things and more in the bible. The God I pray to wouldn't ask this. Those words are written by men or perhaps women? to control and suit their own wishes.

Spiritualists don't go by a book that was written to control and changed to suit.

They follow 7 principles. They pray to God. The Lords prayer is said. Hymns sung.

These are the 7 principles.
The Fatherhood of God. The brotherhood of man. The communion of spirits and the ministry of angels. The continuous existence of the human soul. Personal responsibility. Compensation and retribution for all the good and evil deeds done on earth. Eternal progress open to every human soul.

There's no asking people to do bad things. The churches are open to all. Usually modest places. Donations for expenses and overheads. No millions worth of treasures or art. Not in any I've been in. Only warmth and hospitality.

Yes you do get people that you may not like. You get them in all walks of life. As with any religious practice you are best visiting a few places to find your fit.

I take it you are a spiritualist?

From what you have stated you have made it clear that the ‘deity’ worshipped in that religion is not YHWH of the Bible and that although spiritualists recite the Lord’s Prayer they have zero regard for the Lord’s Word, as found in scripture.

Your post is extremely helpful in revealing that any casual perception of spiritualism as being ‘Christian’ is an extremely thin veneer, and a deceptive one at that. Thanks.

I'm not a Christian but Queen Victoria, the head of the Church of England, practiced Spiritualism and attended seances. Lots of eminent Victorians were Christians and Spiritualists. Sir Arthur Conan-Doyle creator of Sherlock Holmes is a famous example.
Fundamentals pick and choose the Bible....

Now, let’s address the passages raised by @CuriousMama as accusations against YHWH’s moral character.

1 Deuteronomy 22:28-29; God's punishment for the raping of a virgin is to pay her father 50 shekels of silver and marry her for life. The rapist was seen as ruining someone else's property, not ruining a young girl's life.
Forcing a girl to marry her rapist and have her father accept some money as compensation is disgusting.”

This passage isn’t about rape.

That subject is dealt with earlier in the chapter- where the penalty for the man is death. His victim is, quite rightly, not deemed to have done anything wrong.

Perhaps this will help clarify.

apologeticspress.org/deuteronomy-2228-29-and-rape-5197/

@CuriousMama makes a second accusation against YHWH.

“• 2 Samuel 7:11; God, through Nathan, says he is going to punish David's affair with Bathsheba by making all of David's wives prostitutes. God making David's wives prostitutes, despite what His own law said, is not moral.”

First of all the reference is wrong. It should read 2 Samuel 12 :11 .

This isn’t a question of forcing David’s wives into a life of prostitution. It’s describing a single event - a particularly grotesque consequence of David’s grevious sin of first stealing a man’s wife and then murdering him.

In fact David pronounces his own punishment - four fold recompense (v 6) which in practice was the death over several years of four of his sons - the unnamed baby born from the adultery, Ammon, Absolam and Adonijah.

Sin is no small matter. Adultery and murder have lasting consequences. David repented abd was forgiven- but his legacy was tainted by his sin.

This may help you to comprehend what really happened here-
enduringword.com/bible-commentary/2-samuel-12/

@CuriousMama brings a third accusation against YHWH.

“Leviticus 26:29; God describes how he will punish people by making them eat the flesh of their own sons and daughters.”

What she fails to see is that Leviticus 26 is a simple, but bald statement of the consequences of obedience to YHWH or of disobedience to Him.

For obedience the consequences are abundance, plenty, security etc -
“Your threshing shall last till the time of vintage, and the vintage shall last till the time of sowing; you shall eat your bread to the full, and dwell in your land safely”
(5)

…and of disobedience-
many disasters including -
“When I have cut off your supply of bread, ten women shall bake your bread in one oven, and they shall bring back your bread by weight, and you shall eat and not be satisfied. And after all this, if you do not obey Me, but walk contrary to Me, then I also will walk contrary to you in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins. You shall eat the flesh of your sons, and you shall eat the flesh of your daughters…( v 26-29)

BUT …

“Yet for all that, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, nor shall I abhor them, to utterly destroy them and break My covenant with them; for I am YHWH their God. But for their sake I will remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God: I am YHWH.’ ”
(v 44-45)

In the face of massive provocation YHWH stays true to His part of the covenant He made with His people. He does not utterly reject them and when they are ready to repent, He is ready to forgive and restore.

*typo

Now we come to the fourth accusation of @CuriousMama .. the destruction of Jericho, (and out of chrinological order) Heshbon and Bashan.

Perhsps she will consider that the fate of these cities and peoples were as a result of their own sins? One can only hope.

She should remember though that the sole survivors of Jericho were a prostitute and her family, saved by faith in YHWH.

. “The severe judgment that was brought against Jericho, and all of Canaan didn’t come because they were an obstacle or inconvenience for Israel. Judgment came because the Canaanites were a people in total rebellion against God and in league with the occult, as the artifacts recovered from this period demonstrate. God held back His judgment against the Canaanites a long time, giving them time to repent. Because they did not repent, judgment came through the armies of Israel.”

enduringword.com/bible-commentary/joshua-6/

YHWH saw their evil practices, including burning their infant babies alive in demonic worship. These cultures deserved judgement and they received it. And yet the simple faith of a prostitute was sufficient to ensure her salvation and that of her entire family, by the mercy of YHWH.

Finally , for her last calumny against YHWH-

“• 1 Numbers 31:7-18; God decides to not kill everyone this time. This time, He commands the Israelites to kill all the Midianites except the virgins, whom they will take as spoils of war. Killing everyone besides virgins and using them as sex slaves “

No. Absolutely no Israelite was ever permitted to take a female prisoner of war as a ‘sex slave’ . The Law that YHWH gave to Moses commanded such women were to be married and given the full rights of marriage in the community of Israel. (Deuteronomy 21: 10-14)

The casual assumption that these women would be treated ‘sex slaves’ causes me to wonder if the OP is talking about another religion?

It certainly is not the command of YHWH.

I wonder if @CuriousMama really researched all these verses herself, or if she gleaned them from a YHWH- hate page somewhere online? I hope she will have a better understanding of YHWH and His ways now.
But I won’t hold my breath.

Queen Victoria was ahead of her time. I visited Osborne house a few years ago and was so impressed with her. I hadn't known an awful lot before then. Some of her dcs weren't as impressive.

I knew about Sir Arthur Conan-Doyle too.