Right, I need help! (Back to Church Sunday might appear in this thread)

[nickelbabe]

Our church has been losing congtregation steadily since we got a vicar that ruined the whole thing for everyone.
noone will come back who left when he started alienating them all.
and a lot those that were left were old.
Quite a few have died, or had to go into old people's homes.

Now one of our choir members has broken his hip and had to have a replacement (our only decent bass) and his wife, one of our sopranos has been quite ill and had a fit a while ago and is still not allowed to drive, so we've lost her for a while too.
and last night, our good Tenor has announced that he can't cope with the drive from where he lives (10-15 miles away) every friday for practice, or witht he driving in the winter (he's not only old, but also got a disability which is really starting to affect him now), so he's leaving after October evensong.
there is noone in the congregation that we can draw on, because those that aren't old have mental disabilities or have important jobs that take their time during the services.even two members of our choir have to do church warden duties so can't sing most sundays.

I'm at the end of despair now - this town is quite non-churchy - those that will go to church already seem to and noone else is interested.
and then at the end of the month we've got back to church sunday and we've got noone to invite!
and, i have to be honest, for which i feel awful, but i can imagine anyone coming to our church would be put off by the congregation we have.

so what do i do?

ps praying doesn't work - it might make us all feel better and know that God's on our side, but it doesn't bring practical solutions (we are praying as well, but i need solutions this time!!)

I've made a choir flyer to send to all the local senior schools and adulteducation sentre, which is a start.
we seem to get people who come once and then never come again (it's even so bad that we've only had 8 weddings this year - including mine! and that's an all time low - normally we would have 15-upwards)

how about getting some publicity for your church via the local radio station? BBC Kent will probably have a Sunday religious programme. Worth talking to their presenter / producer about doing an item on how difficult it is to get permanent bums on seats rather than just for high days and holidays.

worktomorrow - if you're talking a lady priest, then, don't worry - it was the man priest who left (leaving AC in charge as she had been the NSM and then a part-time associate minister).
AC is the most lovely lady you'll ever wish to meet - she's amazing. the love of God shines out of every pore in her body (sorry if that sounds really soppy! )

wisteria - that might be worth trying.
i shall dig around...

Nickelbabe - that's a relief - you had me confused there for a moment.

AC is settling in well - had our 'away day' last Saturday and already done a 'survey' as to how we would like our church to progress in the future.

Did you come to the Licencing ceremony? We may have even met - I was the one traipsing round with endless plates of sandwiches/cakes/biscuits!

Really hope your situation improves for you - we had 18 months without a priest in charge, it is a tricky time and puts a lot of pressure on everyone. Will pray for your church.

I think if the Diocese/Wardens do not appoint an incumbent or PIC within a year, the the Patron will do it, and you have very little control over the person you get.

They need to be working on a Parish Profile, so that you all get a say in the type of person you want and the vision for your church.

worktomorrow - i'm glad she's settling in - I think your church has struck gold there! She really is a lovely woman - she has a proper foward vision (probably not that suited to our church, being as it's stuck in the dark ages! but at least she respects tradition), and it's great that she's getting you all involved in how the church will be.
yes, I did come to the licensing - we all came down in a double decker bus!
I was the one climbing all over your old organ after the service - it seems I've become "and organist's wife" and dewveloped an obsession for the workings of them! I did not see that coming!

MmeBlueberry - we had to make a Parish Profile before, when we thought we were going to get a PIC - a lot has changed now, and as long as we can get cover for the services, they don't have to appoint anyone. I think that because churches are finding it so hard to pay their way, the diocese basically say "tough, you can wait".
:(

oh nickel - I really sympathise with your DH - I'm an organist foremost, I only do the choir (when we have one - similar problem to you - choir has died. become too old to cope anymore, or gone off to university) because they can only afford to pay one person (and I only get half rates as well - not that I'm bothered about that) and so I do it.

We have a similar sized congregation - and the choir was around 11 when I joined as well.

Our church has started to get a few families back to church by organising totally "non-church" related stuff (in the church hall - which is separate from the church itself).

We have games nights, sing-along musical nights, etc etc.

I know what you mean about approaching people directly though.........I'm no good at it either.

he doesn't get paid anymore, either.

he used to get £??, (whatever it was!) paid directly into his bank account, and suddenly, after the new vicar came, it stopped. noone said anything to him, didn't tell him that it was going to stop, didn't ask him if it was okay.
and he didn't dare say anything.

so he really is doing it for the love of it.

I had a quick look in the service register last night, and our last 4 sunday services have had between 30 and 40 people (last week we had 37) - that includes the choir, two organists, 2 church wardens, a reader and people who are on the rota for that week.
(and not 11 at the moment, either because we're down 2)

Most of the non-church events are held at the other church, because it's more like a church hall in feel (free-form seating, carpets etc)
we get large concerts and major services like the funeral directors' memorial services.

oh that's a bit rubbish that they didn't tell him they were stopping it!

I was quite shocked when they asked me for my bank details when I agreed to take over.

I grew up in playing in a small methodist where the organist was most definitley not paid and it had never occured to me that I could be paid for it.

A couple of times in the last few years I've "tried" to quit - citing the difficulties with evening services now I'm on my own..........they always stop me in my tracks by pointing out that I only get paid 1/2 the going rate so by rights am actually doing the evening services "for free" anyhow.

I think our usuall figure is around 40 people (like you including those that "have" to be there).

Do you not have a church ahll then? That sucks - where do the Sunday school meet?

surely the fact you're doing evenings for free should be the reason you cite to them not to do them??

we have a little tiny building behind the church called Church House, which is where the "uniformed groups" meet, but it's not very big.

we don't have a Sunday School anymore - because the other church is Happy Clappy, and ours is traditional, whenever new people show interest in joining us, if they have children, they are directed to the other church (even if, like friends of ours) they don't like happy clappy music/services - they're basically pushing people away from our church (and we can't really do anything because we're a united benefice :( )
not that the other church is doing much better (i think they are 50-60)- but they are getting new congregation because of that, and we're not.

well no - as they're paying me 1/2 the normal going rate - I should be paid double what I get but they can't afford it

I didn't even realise until 2yrs ago that I was being paid 1/2 what the other organists in other town churches round here are (I've been playing there nearly 8yrs now lol)

Sounds like your ex vicar well and truly shafted you leaving you in the dark ages

oh.

yup, he really did.
everything that happens to us seems like he's still here, making it worse and worse and worse. :(

i am thinking of giving up with this choir. :(

last night one of the sopranos rang to say that she has a flu and won't be there this weekend.
this weekend is Choral Evensong, and of the remaining choir members:
1 sop has flu
1 sop is looking after husband who just got out of hospital with broken mended hip
1 sop is away
2 sops don't come to evensong
1 sop won't be coming cos too tired (quite old)
1 alto doesn't yet do services (and wasn't at practice anyway)
1 tenor is rubbish
1 tenor is not yet fully trained (and missed practice as is away till tonight, so won't be any good)
1 bass has a broken mended hip
1 bass ?? coming or not? might be working cetainly wasn't at evensong

so, this week for evensong, we're left with
1 sop (me, not confident!)
1 alto (DH , choirmaster, not organist for evenson)
1 tenor who's good (the one leaving in Oct)
2 tenors, as above, not good
1 organist

oops.

still, at least the introit is a piece where it's 4 phrases and two of them are me singing a solo.

and we can't do the anthem we were going to do for sunday morning, either, because it turns out the only 2 sops that knew it were me and Flu lady, and i don't know it well enough to sing it on my own against people sight-singing....

Hope you don't mind, but I had a look at your church's website and the choir website.

I have to say, that looking at those two sites, there doesn't appear to be a problem. The impression is that both the choir and the church is vibrant and active. I couldn't see any invitations to join the choir on either website (just practice times).

If you are in crisis, you have to communicate it. If people don't think there is a problem, they won't step up and do something.

In our church, we have an annual crisis over youth and children's leaders. We work on the absolute minimum diocesan requirements. We do have a lot of children and youth in our church family, as well as many who come to outreach only. At the start of each year, we used to get everyone involved in children's work to stand up so we could give them a round of applause. Over 100 people would stand up (people who helped out once every half-term, etc), and the impression was that all was well, so no one new needed to volunteer, and they didn't take the begging requests seriously.

Now that we don't do that any more, it is slightly easier to get people to say yes, even if it is just a stop-gap measure.

We have also found that you need to ask people personally. Very few people will step forward of their own accord.

Mme Blueberry, the church's website has not been updated with the current choir details - we sent a new update and it hasn't been put on yet (the admin of the website changed hands after our lady minister left (it went through a preiod of not being looked after) and it's way out of date - the lady in charge has had a lot of updating to do...) (in fact the main reason I set up a choir website was because i was fed up with the church website being totally out of date)

I will amend the header of the choir website to say please join - i was hoping that thatmessage came across, but if you didn't see that, then it's obviously not obvious - i'll amend that today)

I know we need to do something (and fast!)
i think we're working on it, steadily, though.
It would be easier if we only had one church to worry about, but because we have the united benefice of 2 churches, I think some members are torn between the two (divided loyalties sounds really cynical, but that's what i'm alluding to), and it means that one or the other suffers because of it.

and as we have just lost our shining hope (the lasy minister), we are floundering somewhat anyway, not only with direction, but with patience and hope. (we do feel that the diocese has left us to fight on our own, we're not really getting a lot of practical help from them - they're too busy worrying about the "future" of churches in Sittingbourne to think about what might happen in the coming days/weeks/months.

We know that there is a plan, or at least the discussions towards a plan, but it's not getting bums on seats, and it's making those of us faithful few want to give up. :(

We also find that we have people who help out with things on a short-term basis (eg holiday club), but for week-to-week, we only have a small rota of people willing/able to help.

We have noone else to draw on for help.
We need to get people in the church first, and allow them to settle in and feel part of the community before we can draw them into volunteering positions.

If you really want your church to have a future, you need to think outside the box, and not try to do everything you have always done. There are so many unchurched people out there, and they won't easily do church the way you want them to.

You really need to get help from your diocese, or an organisation such as CPAS which helps struggling churches transform themselves.

We had a Ladies Day a few years ago and one of our Diocesan reps did all the talks. She talked about our 'outreach' efforts not being outreach at all, because their aim was to 'drag in'. She then sent us into our High Street to spend an hour eavesdropping on the conversations people were having, to find out where they were. It was a fascinating exercise (and I did my stint in the local pub, ).

I get the impression that you want to turn the clock back to a different age, where pews were filled with people wearing their Sunday best, and the choir put on a real show.

It's just not like that nowadays. People do not now come to church out of a sense of obligation or to show everyone how upright they are. They come because they want to be transformed by the Gospel message. I actually think this is a very exciting time for the church because there is so much work to do in our communities.

It does sound like you have too many churches in your area. It must be costing a lot to support them, and you will not be putting very much money into mission and outreach. It would make a lot of sense to close some of them. Obviously, you know your parish best, but would it not make sense to amalgamate both congregations into one building, and then to have the traditional and contemporary services at different times? In our church, we have an four services each Sunday, all different flavours. We do come together as a church family for some joint services, for our houseparty, and midweek activities.

i meant "lady" minister, not "lasy"!!

I wasn't sure!

problem is, we really don't have the people/resources to do all this exciting stuff.

And we're not trying to get the church back to the days when people wore their sunday best and the choir put on a real show.
what we're trying to do is uphold traditions, so that people in this town/deanery who want tradition are not forced to go to a happy clappy church (and lets face it, ultimately they won't go at all if that's the only choice they've got).

The way it stands now, we're 14 miles away from Canterbury, and (some number of miles) away from Rochester (i think we're closer in dsitance to Rochester, but are in the Canterbury Diocese) and people who can't find a church that's traditional enough are going to Canterbury, because they know that they will get a tradtional service with bells and a choir. (which again, is what happened to some of our congregation when the vicar pushed them away)

Most of the churches in this town have gone the happy clappy route, because a while ago, that's all the CofE could envisage for the future.
Let's hang all the people who want a traditional service - they don't matter ,because normally they're a bit older, or aren't as evangelical about their faith.
well, that's not realistic, because by doing that (and indeed that's what the problem was with our vicar)
But people do want those kind of services - speaking from experience, I hate happy clappy services, with their tuneless songs and guitars, and "friendly" atmosphere - that's not how i worship God. I know that God would not want me to go somewhere to praise him but feel like it's a chore, feel like i hate it and don't want to be there.
I am a firm believer that each method of worship should be available for each town/parish/deanery. and at the moment our town is failing the traditionalists.
People left St michael's because the vicar forced a type of service on them that they didn't want. and most didn't come back.
and most have found other churches that do suit them, and are now integrated into them, so of course they won't come back now.
others have stopped going to church altogether (and believe me, the only reason I stayed in that church after that horrid man came was because of the loyalty i had for the choir - if i hadn't been in the choir, i would have left with all the others - he was the most unchristian man i have ever met - he was rude, obnoxious and just nasty to people who didn't agree with everything he said or did.)

I know a lot of people (in my home town) who would hate to be forced to go to a happy clappy church, and I know that people do move away from the church is they don't believe they have a choice.

We do have too many churches in our area, but we're very spread out, so traditionally, there has to be more churches, because most people want to live within a reasonable distance form the church.
but equally, too many of the churches in the area have gone the same way.
I have no problem with the churches that do the same thing merging, because you can have too much of a bland thing, but i also don't think that you can take churches away from people's locality.
I know you have good ideas, but your congregations are a lot bigger than ours - i don't see how having the churches in one building but still having different services at different times is going to be any different from what it's like now (the churches both have very different physical feels/appearances to them, so it would probably hinder more than help)

One of the happy clappy churches in our town is at a busy junction, is hard to get to by pedestrians, and quite frankly looks like a proper mess from the outside. but i know that if you told them that their church was going to be the one to close, there would be biting and punching.
people are very loyal to their churches.

(btw, i'm not dismissing your points, i'm just trying to help paint a better picture - I know i can't stand happy clappy because i've tried it,at several points in my life, in different cities, and each time i have come away not feeling like i've been worshipping, but still having an empty hollow where my soul longs for God)

oh, dear, I do go on, don't I!

This is such an interesting discussion. Unfortunately our church is in the position of having a vicar unsuited to the parish, and it does cause terrible damage

It sounds to me like your church needs to find out what people do want, and then do it, putting all available resources into play. Listening is so important.

You could have your traditional service in the same church building as your contemporary service (btw, 'happy clappy' is so 1980s).

If you were in the same building, you will get some movement between congregations, and perhaps some new regular members. You will be able to share in more of your mission work, and do midweek bible study and prayer together.

I don't think the powers that be particularly prefers contemporary worship. It is true that the last ABC was evangelical, but the current one is AC. What contemporary, evangelical parishes do is pay their parish shares and support the churches that do not attract enough tithing members.

This problem is much bigger than you can cope with yourself. Help has to come from the Diocese. That is what they are there for.

Church is not all about worship style - it is about relationships. Your traditionalists may travel for the occasional fix, but their hearts should still be in the local parish.

Povincial Lady - I hope we can do that - if we could find some resources. I need practical solutions that don't need me to do it all!

the current bishop is lovely - he has already said that he thinks that there is room for all types of worship.

I totally agree with your last sentence, Mme, we do want the parishioners to stay in the parish.
and we do want ourchurch community to thrive.

It's sooo much bigger a problem than we can sort out, and the Diocese seems to have left us on a limb (we can't pay the quota so we can't have a PIC, we don't have a PIC, so there's no continuity (no matter how hard we try), there's no continuity, so people don't want to come because they're unsure of what's going to happen, so no quota no priest, no priest no congregation)

the reason that the other church was kitted out like it is was to attract the 1980s people (sorry, couldn't help it!), and it does feel more church hall-like.
st michael's doesn't really suit that kind of service - mainly because it's so big and with the small number of people that attend, the noise of them carries too much, etc etc (it has been tried - i think the (can't think of a better description than happyclappy!) like the softer sound of the building.
it does feel more like a social gathering than a church service - morelike a club iyswim.
and they do get very territorial.
there's no chance we can do it the other way round (us go into their building) for several reasons - one, they don't have an organ, two the acoustics no longer suit a choir-type sound (it's been carpetted), and ours is more central, has more history, is bigger, is grade 2 listed, etc

Our church is grade 2 listed as well and what a palaver it was to get permission to have it carpeted :)

BTW, nickelbabe, I really pray for your encouragement and strength with the problems you face.

I hope that you can see the problems more as opportunities (to use corporate-speak). You do have lots of opportunities ahead of you but you have not yet discerned what they are.

You are not alone in the trials that you face - there must be 100s of churches up and down the country facing your problem.

What you have to remember is that you can't fix it under your own steam. No one promised that the Christian journey would be an easy one, but it is one that you don't have to travel alone.

And remember that with God, all things are possible (Matt 19:26), and that God supplies all our needs (Phil 4:19).

God bless.